Cream Legbars

[ChicKat]

Tru,
Love his comb and wattles, beak and expression, and crest. Keep posting, it will be really interesting to see how he grows out!

 

[ChicKat]

I did learn quite a lot from the experience and if you are really dedicated and interested, all obstacles can be overcome with patience, practice and funds. I don't mean to discourage you if you want to go for it, just passing on my take from the experiment.

although not on the collecting end, some years ago we did an AI program for our registered cattle, including checking for heat every 6-hours - hiring an Texas A&M PHd to do the actual AI work, juggling schedules, the expenses etc. We had great success, and moved our herd genetics forward. At the end, we discovered that getting a really good bull - is a more successful and economical and far less stressful to the the animals (and to us) approach. We decided a really good male is worth it -- because he will be on the job 24/7 and 'will work for food'. That's one reason that a registered bull will sell for $9,000 and up .. if he is the grand champion at an registered cattle auction

It wasn't that above referenced post, but I think elsewhere dretd where you were describing some of the differences between chicken and other livestock that has lines of pedigree. I really appreciate that post. In someways, though I find it a bit dismaying...

. Instead of ancestry tracing back... it almost sounds like a show-ring winner in the poultry competitions could be basically anything as long as for that show session it looks right. There could be a situation where a rooster without even one O gene could come in first place, providing he looks good. I know people in other breeds have experienced some fudging in the pedigree lines, I think someone with paints and quarter-horses was kind of saying anything goes...at times in their showing world...way back when we were discussing a pedigree database for chickens... But seems a bit like a chicken could be more of a "painting in the pen" than a long history of successful breeding of the same breed. (Especially with cockerels, because they pass genetics along but there is no egg there to proof what he is. ) IT is more of a point-in-time than of a linear progression for the breed.

Now, I'm exaggerating a bit here to make the point, but perhaps that is one of the reasons that the U.K. has some troublesome birds that are called CLs and lack a lot of the traits. Someone gets hatching eggs in good faith, from even a prize-winning rooster in the pairing - and whoops - a different egg color shows up -- thinking here of olive since it is accepted in the UK.

Just seems so strange an approach to my mind - coming from the perspective of registered cattle.

Contrast with that - some people who specialize in a breed, such as --- well, name any breed - Barred Rocks, Marans, RIR..etc. - will say .."from 'Mary Smith's line" or some name of repute. That would be the type of consistent flock that produces certain characteristics that a prospective chicken buyer would be looking for. And that would probably have the long-term perspective that I am more used to in the world of registered livestock.

 

[CibolaChooks]

So interesting about the roosters. I think some of the crowing goes to divert threats.
If the cockerel thinks someone is going to out rank him he will crow to show he's bigger-better-smarter. The other time mine crowed a lot was when there was a threat like hawk, raccoon, snake, stray calf.. etc. -- Chicken behavior is fascinating.

Steen... someway, we need to capture your 'ear plugs work great' animation for posterity - store it in the club house -- and access it when we need a light-hearted moment. Think I will go over there and add a topic called "cartoons". ;O)

i thought i was rather funny but also rather good advice

 

[TherryChicken]

 

[TherryChicken]

 

[TherryChicken]

 

[Whoops]

I am fairly ignorant about chickens, though I have raised other registered livestock (sheep). Pondering going into raising CL, I was also a bit taken back by the lack of pedigree, but then, the more I thought about it, more sense it made to me. Chickens don't have heat cycles, and they are fertile for a bit of time after being bred, so it is much more possible to have multiple sire candidates. Also, they don't do live birth, so tagging the offspring a given female is more problematic. By the time you find the egg, determine which hen laid it, put it in the incubator and hatch it out with a dozen or so others, how do you really, really, consistently, practically tell which one hatched from which egg from which hen by which roo?

Additionally, with chickens, they are such territorial little snits that you can't just throw them in there to do the deed. You have to control for aggression issues, disease issues, pest issues, and acclimatization to a new space issues. All of this makes trading out roos every generation difficult, which creates a drift toward heavy inbreeding. Inbreeding reduces fertility and vitality, so that makes an opposing drift toward outcrossing to restore fertility.

Chickens also have such a short reproductive timeline - what, six or seven months until eggs are sexually mature? Again, that pushes towards inbreeding, which tends to fix traits, good or bad.

With dogs, for my own pets, I have learned to avoid show breeders as the dogs they breed are significantly less healthy than mixes and "grade" dogs. Closed registries inevitably lead to a decline in vitality. Always. There is a reason my 13 year old GSD mix still actively competes in flyball while purebred akc border collies usually retire by 10 and very few purebred GSDs can even compete in that sport. Even my non-registerable border collie is sound and has strong herding and competing drive, but my AKC registered border collie has hip dysplasia. I knew the AKC registered dogs' parents and lineage, who were sound. Her sire was the national agility champion. But, still, the closed registries and inevitable line breeding that results concentrates faults as well as features.

Sorry - I am going on a bit. I do believe that if you are breeding cream legbars, then you should produce birds that at the very least, meet the expected criteria - blue eggs, general appearance, autosexing at hatch. But, to simply breed the best two, then the best two of their offspring, then the best two of their offspring, will just lead to a vortex of inbreeding and general decline. Outcrossing and breeding back to standard can improve the breed and make it more viable. Show performance can only be one factor in judging a given specimen of the breed. You also have to judge him on the quality and consistency of birds he sires, and them on the quality and consistency of the eggs they lay. That judgement cannot be made in the show ring and the show ring cannot dictate which birds you breed.

Sorry for the really long post elaborating on my ignorant opinions, but I just wanted to explain my earlier comment about liking that the registries of chickens aren't closed. It isn't that I want people to be sneaking halfbreeds and sorta-looks-likes in as CL, it's that I want the breed to maintain the vitality and productivity it was originally bred for.

 

[LaBella]

Whoops, you're singing my tune about closed registries and the dangers of inbreeding, especially within closed registries. There are a few decent ways to get around and away from the tendencies to inbreed. First is starting with a genetically diverse flock. Then swapping roosters.. Well, I'm not too certain that you can pull the old roo, stick a new on in and have him treading your hens by nightfall, but I do know that the hens will rally around their new roo in a short period of time.
It seems to me that the best time to switch out the old roo for a new roo is in the winter while the hens are not laying. This gives the hens time to get used to their new roo, the roo time to get used to his new flock, without worrying about if you're going to get mixed eggs. When spring comes, and you start to set eggs, you're sure they're sired by the new roo.
I am sure there are some that will make use of efforts to insure they know what hen is laying what egg. (I am having a fried egg brain moment), and there are some that will keep pedigrees of a sort, but on the whole it seems that most breeding records are kept by flock. That's not too hard to compare to dog breeding.. if you think of the flock like a fox hound or beagle hunting pack. They might know who the mother is, but they rarely know who the father is, though in chickens it's usually the opposite, we don;'t know who the mother is, but we know who the father is, lolol.

 

[normanack]

With all the discussion of roosters and breeding methods (I've learned a lot from all of you! Thanks!) I'd like to know more about how people are managing having multiple roos. I'm not yet doing any real breeding and would like to have ideas for pens and coops if and when I do -- on a very modest scale.

Currently I have one large coop, a good-sized chicken yard, and a hardened run (like a dog kennel). All the chickens are together in my hobby/laying flock. Eventually I'd like to breed my pair of heritage Barred Rocks (their original breeder will provide me with hatching eggs to vary the gene pool) and my trio of Cream Legbars (until I can afford to buy one or two more).

Do you keep your breeding birds in separate smaller quarters permanently? Do you switch them in and out of a larger space and flock? Do you keep a bachelor pen, or allow roosters in with the hens? Thanks for your thoughts and advice.

 

[DeltaBluezTess]

I put the breeders in their own area when I am collecting eggs. Then they get a break and go into the pond pasture where they can free range and take time off. That pond pasture area is adult hens and one rooster...all the eggs are sold for food.

Then I have my grow out pen, when the young roo/pullets and other breeding hen I have two 12x14 horse stalls with lights and one 6 x 12 ' chain link kennel. I also use this for the breeders and during the winter when I pick some hens to lay eggs. I let them lay eggs for two months, then switch out so everyone gets a break.

I will be making some of these as permanent pens for the Legbar, Isbars and Spitz in the spring. The Rhodebars will be in the stall when I want to collect eggs, otherwise they go into the free range pond pasture. It has a nice pond in the middle and lots of grass/space all around. I coop them at night in a 10x10' 2x4 " welded wire dog kennel with a rood and covered side.

The grow out pen has two 6x12' chain link kennels with cover. The baby pen has a coop. There is another pen with a 4x8' coop that the Swedish Flower hens are in for the time being. So in a nutshell, four secure areas with shelters, two stalls, one kennel and four baby mama brooder areas. I probable will build another couple run area with a coop.

I counted my rooster and about fainted...over 20 plus.....so having a special on Legbars, Rhodebar and Swedish Roo youngsters....will be selling some pairs as well.

I remember less than a year ago, I only had about 25 hens.....