Cream Legbars

[TherryChicken]

Thank You! I have been considering keeping them both for 2 separate pens. I believe both of their leg spread is the same Here is number 1 as straight on as I could get him

like him

 

[sol2go]

Thank You! I have been considering keeping them both for 2 separate pens.

I believe both of their leg spread is the same
Here is number 1 as straight on as I could get him

a photo from a behind might be more helpful for that objective, also looking down on the back

the advice that I recall is to wait until either gender is atleast a year old to decide

CL's in particular seem to mature late in my opinion, and don't really finish until about 2 yrs.
Maybe I should say they are youthful for a long time =)

 

[ChicKat]

I'd like to use this post to make a general comment to anyone who is interested in breeding crested cream legbars.

Having recently attended a Cream Legbar type evaluation hosted by juststruttin and organized by GaryDean26, the key advice I heard from Walt Leonard is summed up in the old adage: build the barn and then paint it.

So although we are seeing alot of gold hens and uncrested birds, which are all ultimately from GFF crested cream legbar stock, as well as other attributes that are not in keeping with the SOP, those birds may still be valuable assets to a foundation stock.

To the degree that we all have to start somewhere, and probably with a limited number of birds, body size and shape are the key starting points. It may be beneficial to let the birds mature to see if they have the right body shape, are a larger size, and have some other favorable points before rehoming them. While some birds may have more favorable feather color, ie cream, crest, and barring patterns - it is important to weigh that against unfavorable "faults" they may also pass along, some of which are more difficult to eliminate from a breeding program.

There are people who have been working on their line for awhile now with very good results in key areas as well as with the finer points. If our own breeding program has the barn but needs some new paint ie feathers, legs, earlobes, eggshells - then introducing new birds with those colorful attributes is feasible. But to some degree, every time a new bird is introduced, there are new results / faults to filter out.

Researching what's out there may save time before starting a breeding program, but it won't be your breeding program until you put the time and generations into it. (this is not directed at anyone in particular, just some sage advice I have kept note of).

BTW--
Looking for a recipe, I came across this in my notes...I think MAYBE the source is the genetics book from Sigrid Van Dort - or maybe the genetics book from Grant Brereton....but it is interesting regarding the barring. Cream Legbars will never have BPR (Barred Plymouth Rock) barring. -- To get that type of barring the genetic base would need to be black - not wild-type like CLs are...(e+ is the genetic short-hand).......

"A barrred bird on Duckwing e+ wild type is "crele". Crele will never look like barring on eBlack as BPR"

So that's from my note book--- the wild type is part of the autosexing and the barring for a Legbar will always be Crele type - and that's part of the genetic make up of the breed.

 

[dretd]

I'd like to use this post to make a general comment to anyone who is interested in breeding crested cream legbars.

Having recently attended a Cream Legbar type evaluation hosted by juststruttin and organized by GaryDean26, the key advice I heard from Walt Leonard is summed up in the old adage: build the barn and then paint it.

So although we are seeing alot of gold hens and uncrested birds, which are all ultimately from GFF crested cream legbar stock, as well as other attributes that are not in keeping with the SOP, those birds may still be valuable assets to a foundation stock.

To the degree that we all have to start somewhere, and probably with a limited number of birds, body size and shape are the key starting points. It may be beneficial to let the birds mature to see if they have the right body shape, are a larger size, and have some other favorable points before rehoming them. While some birds may have more favorable feather color, ie cream, crest, and barring patterns - it is important to weigh that against unfavorable "faults" they may also pass along, some of which are more difficult to eliminate from a breeding program.

There are people who have been working on their line for awhile now with very good results in key areas as well as with the finer points. If our own breeding program has the barn but needs some new paint ie feathers, legs, earlobes, eggshells - then introducing new birds with those colorful attributes is feasible. But to some degree, every time a new bird is introduced, there are new results / faults to filter out.

Researching what's out there may save time before starting a breeding program, but it won't be your breeding program until you put the time and generations into it. (this is not directed at anyone in particular, just some sage advice I have kept note of).

I have been doing a lot of thinking. Most of the people that are currently breeding Cream Legbars are not experienced breeders with other breeds--myself included. Seeing as how one of my goals is to get the CL into the APA SOP, I am trying to get a better grasp on the mind-set and culture of the APA and experienced breeders. It is quite a paradigm shift from what I am used to in the world of mammal breeding. There is a really fascinating thread started by Yellow House Farms that has helped me understand the APA and breeding process:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/882541/apa-aba-culture-for-newcomers

I think that the mantra is to build then paint and there is a lot of wisdom in that. However, if I was given pre-primed boards in my lot of supplies, I sure would take advantage of that and use those to built my barn

 

[jerryse]

I have been doing a lot of thinking. Most of the people that are currently breeding Cream Legbars are not experienced breeders with other breeds--myself included. Seeing as how one of my goals is to get the CL into the APA SOP, I am trying to get a better grasp on the mind-set and culture of the APA and experienced breeders. It is quite a paradigm shift from what I am used to in the world of mammal breeding. There is a really fascinating thread started by Yellow House Farms that has helped me understand the APA and breeding process:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/882541/apa-aba-culture-for-newcomers

I think that the mantra is to build then paint and there is a lot of wisdom in that. However, if I was given pre-primed boards in my lot of supplies, I sure would take advantage of that and use those to built my barn

Build the barn first is good advice . However that is not how things were done historically . Color mutations gave rise to many breeds and type was developed later . Most domestic turkey breeds were color mutations . Any mutation was often preserved because it was different . Type included . We have many traits to evaluate when making breeding choices . Yes I agree type makes the breed but sometimes we have to settle for the gains we can get .

 

[dretd]

Quote:
One big thing I just learned in that APA newcomer thread I referenced is that color makes variety, not breed. According to Yellow House Farm, the only breed that has color as a part of breed/type is the Rhode Island Red. All turkeys are under the Turkey class and each color is a variety, so the Red Bourbon is a variety of Turkey not a breed of Turkey; there are not enough unique qualities between the different varieties (other than size) to separate them into their own breeds. The Cream Legbar is technically a variety of Legbar not a breed in and of itself in the view of the APA.

Like I said--that thread has been an eye-opening paradigm shift for me!

 

[sol2go]

BTW--
Looking for a recipe, I came across this in my notes...I think MAYBE the source is the genetics book from Sigrid Van Dort - or maybe the genetics book from Grant Brereton....but it is interesting regarding the barring. Cream Legbars will never have BPR (Barred Plymouth Rock) barring. -- To get that type of barring the genetic base would need to be black - not wild-type like CLs are...(e+ is the genetic short-hand).......

"A barrred bird on Duckwing e+ wild type is "crele". Crele will never look like barring on eBlack as BPR"

So that's from my note book--- the wild type is part of the autosexing and the barring for a Legbar will always be Crele type - and that's part of the genetic make up of the breed.

thanks for the note on barring, I've been thinking about different comments both from Walt and on this forum, especially with regards to choosing between various cockerels and hens.

 

[sol2go]

I have been doing a lot of thinking. Most of the people that are currently breeding Cream Legbars are not experienced breeders with other breeds--myself included. Seeing as how one of my goals is to get the CL into the APA SOP, I am trying to get a better grasp on the mind-set and culture of the APA and experienced breeders. It is quite a paradigm shift from what I am used to in the world of mammal breeding. There is a really fascinating thread started by Yellow House Farms that has helped me understand the APA and breeding process:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/882541/apa-aba-culture-for-newcomers

I think that the mantra is to build then paint and there is a lot of wisdom in that. However, if I was given pre-primed boards in my lot of supplies, I sure would take advantage of that and use those to built my barn

love that!

 

[sol2go]

Build the barn first is good advice . However that is not how things were done historically . Color mutations gave rise to many breeds and type was developed later . Most domestic turkey breeds were color mutations . Any mutation was often preserved because it was different . Type included . We have many traits to evaluate when making breeding choices . Yes I agree type makes the breed but sometimes we have to settle for the gains we can get .

One big thing I just learned in that APA newcomer thread I referenced is that color makes variety, not breed. According to Yellow House Farm, the only breed that has color as a part of breed/type is the Rhode Island Red. All turkeys are under the Turkey class and each color is a variety, so the Red Bourbon is a variety of Turkey not a breed of Turkey; there are not enough unique qualities between the different varieties (other than size) to separate them into their own breeds. The Cream Legbar is technically a variety of Legbar not a breed in and of itself in the view of the APA.

Like I said--that thread has been an eye-opening paradigm shift for me!

Thanks for the variety of comments and references.

Meeting with Walt was in large part to help move the CL breeding program into a position that it can be accepted by the APA; GaryDean26 is much better versed in this than I am. I found it fascinating how keen the observations are from an experienced poultry person like Walt. He really helped me to look at chickens in a new way, from the overall silhouette to the finer points. To help direct a breeding program requires not just appearances, but also an understanding of structure, the discovery of which includes holding and examining the birds. The time spent with Walt was insightful from many perspectives.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:
I like to term it a "painted barn". When I started with the Legbars I thought I had a good chance of getting them cream early on with what I had. Type was important but with 1 rooster and 2 hens where the cream pullet had better type I went with the cream despite the type issues with my rooster as I could ill afford to buy another at the prices and availability at that time. Sometimes you have to work with what you have and I like most other Cream Legbars am a total novice at all of this. It would be nice if someone with know-how did pick up the breed. I believe someone who was in with the Marans and their road to the APA has started with the Legbars so hopefully they post their experiences. I checked out and subscribed to the thread. It was an interesting read. I do understand the variety versus breed idea but struggling with how to get everything all in one package as I go forward. I know it's baby steps but sometimes the priorities of that progression can put my head in a spin. I'd love to do a heritage breed but only so much space and time (and patience from the family). I have to admit I much prefer to see the birds in person than in the photos. My experience here on BYC has made me wary of posting photos or evaluating from photos as they can hide so much or alter, even if ever so slightly, the true image. I sometimes don't even like to rely on photos for my own records as they can hinder me from my true memory of something. I like mental and written notes better.