Cream Legbars

[ChicKat]

I may have to do it from my computer.
Some of mine have no crests but very large combs.
It seems the crest cause wrinkles for sure .
None of mine are perfect. They all have either comb issues, or the one that i like looks really scrawny.
My dilemma is which do I cull for first?
I'm just not sure which trait to sacrifice
I've downsized on all my boys from other breeds lately. Now it's their turn .

It is always hard. I'm sure you will figure out a strategy that will work for your flock and there is no "one right answer".

Remember too that the Standard of Perfection is not considered the entry point - it is what to breed toward. Theoretically Perfection is not attainable - theoretically there will never be a perfect bird, the bird may be perfect in everything except the comb has the wrong number of points, or the weight isn't spot on, etc.etc.etc -- and even those likelihoods are rare. So you have two things to think about -- one is maintain the strengths that your chickens have. For example if you have good tail angles - then make sure that is SET in your flock. Last year I worked on Combs---and I'm pretty pleased with the progress. Now I really have to pay attention to the angle of the tail - which we think may be related to the length of the back. Length in livestock is one way to add weight BTW... we always looked of long, long, long backs on our cattle. (If you see Grand Champions at shows for Registered Beef Cattle... sometimes you think dachshund ) ;O)

So I look for things now like hens with lower tails -- last year I was looking for hens with smaller combs. It will all make sense to you -- but most likely you can't do it all at one time - and it will take some generations to get where you want to be.
:O)

 

[ChicKat]

@chrissyr how many males are you deciding between? Also what is there age?

It is very difficult to narrow down the choices isn't it, especially when they all have good and bad points. First I will start by saying that the males in the pics you provided all appear incorrectly colored gold, so color currently is one thing you don't need to look at the moment. So with color set aside I think for me personally I would look for one of the larger males with a nice long back and low tail angle and wings tucked up high. Look over the SOP and try to match one of your males with the body type that is described there(to the best of your ability). Comb and crest doesn't need to be a concern at the moment and can be worked on in future generations. Also once you narrow down your males with the best weight and type you could take in to consideration eye color and lobe color. That should help you narrow down your choices.


edited to add - It is suggested to not use non-crested Cream Legbar for breeding. So it may be wise to choose a crested male.

Oh, I hadn't even read chicken pickin's good advice when I posted...that happens a lot if it is on the next page.

Regarding color - the CL Club Board of directors met last night - and if there is enough interest in developing an SOP for the more colorful Legbars, (hence the discussion of Crele)--- then the Club will support the effort for the other varieties of Legbar(s).

Soooo it frees everyone up to develop the best, healthiest chickens, with the best traits, the most vigor, the best type, etc. etc. - and remember that they are supposed to be good layers...of Blue eggs... There is a lot of work to do.....

You will have so much fun developing your flock!

 

[KPenley]

How old is the scrawny one you like chrissyr? I ask because my boys seem to really fill in between 1-2 years.

In terms of combs, have you tried hatching during the Winter? It helps a lot if the boys are doing their preliminary growing during cold bright days. If you feel the birds skulls you can usually feel either a gentle rise or a larger nodule type bump (hernia). The gentle rise type of bump will help a comb to be straighter in the front, while the larger cranial hernia will create an S shaped comb no matter the size of the crest.

Like Kathy said, it's good to pick one or two things to work on each year, and then build onto that aspect the next year. It's a personal preference thing, but I've found that lack of crests is harder to fix than size. Winter hatching, worming often, and lots of whole grains can really help size. I like to cull for health the first year, size and shape the second (especially breast, tail, and long back), then I start looking at features (wing carriage, comb/ear lobe/wattles shapes). Color is usually something breeders focus on last, but because we're dealing with a recessive color I'm keeping an eye on it from the beginning.

 

[ChicKat]

How old is the scrawny one you like chrissyr? I ask because my boys seem to really fill in between 1-2 years.

In terms of combs, have you tried hatching during the Winter? It helps a lot if the boys are doing their preliminary growing during cold bright days. If you feel the birds skulls you can usually feel either a gentle rise or a larger nodule type bump (hernia). The gentle rise type of bump will help a comb to be straighter in the front, while the larger cranial hernia will create an S shaped comb no matter the size of the crest.

Like Kathy said, it's good to pick one or two things to work on each year, and then build onto that aspect the next year. It's a personal preference thing, but I've found that lack of crests is harder to fix than size. Winter hatching, worming often, and lots of whole grains can really help size. I like to cull for health the first year, size and shape the second (especially breast, tail, and long back), then I start looking at features (wing carriage, comb/ear lobe/wattles shapes). Color is usually something breeders focus on last, but because we're dealing with a recessive color I'm keeping an eye on it from the beginning.

you really are getting good advice above.... isn't BYC the best? well of course it is.

 

[dretd]

I will have to check but the hens I am sure are different. Crele old english and crele leghorn hens are more barred.

Oh I can look those up in the APA SOP and compare. Thank you!

There are two breeds that have been accepted into the APA SOP that have a Crele color variety: OEG (1996) and OEGB (1976). The APA has not recognized the Crele Leghorn as a variety by the printing of the latest (2010) printing. (unless I am missing one--please do correct me if I am wrong)

Here is what the two varieties listed have to say about the female color:
OEGB (pg 231) (excerpt)
Hackleale golden, with irregular mottling of greyish brown
Back: Dark slaty grayish brown, with indistinct lighter greyish barring
Wings: Shoulders, Fronts, Bows same as back
Body: Pale grey with surface color gradually blending into that of back and wings
[DQ's listed are 2 or more solid white feathers or solid black feathers in the tail, primaries or secondaries, Defects: lacing in any section of the plumage, white male sickles, one solid white primary wing feather Note: Special attention should be given to brightness of barring over whether or not a specimen appears lighter of darker than desired.]

OEG (pg 184): There is no variety description for Crele other than to say " In addition to Black, BBR, Spangled...Self Blue OEG, the following varieties are recognized. Brown Red,Golden Duckwing, Silver Duckwing, Red Pile. White, Crele" Then goes on to say "COLOR descriptions--same as for corresponding variety of Modern Games except for beak and shank color"--but the hitch here is that the Modern Game does not list a Crele color variety so there is in fact no written color description for the OEG Crele variety in the SOP.

Gold Legbar from the PCGB BPS 1971 edition (pg 198)
"Plumage female: Hackle pale gold, marked with black bars. Breast salmon, clearly defined. Body dark smoky or slaty grey-brown with indistinct broad soft barrings, the individual feather shaft and slightly paler edging. Wings dark grey-brown. Tail grey-black with slight indication of lighter broad bars." That's it.

The APA does not define Crele at all. Both the OEGB and the Gold Legbar standard calls for similar body/back markings on the female: dark slaty grayish brown with indistinct lighter greyish barring vs dark smoky or slaty grey-brown with indistinct broad soft barring. They both use the words indistinct barring. Curiously, the OEGB doesn't talk about barring on the body at all, just the back and parts of the wings.

Looking at the differences between the OEGB and the Gold Legbar, I think that they are both genetically Crele colorations, but that the emphasis in the OEGB is for an even barring and they do not want lacing at all. The Gold Legbar actually specifies a slightly paler edging and shafting. It confuses me that the OEGB lists a mottled not a barred hackle. Could it be that perhaps the Gold Legbar is choosing characteristics that will make it easier to autosex the chicks whereas the OEGB doesn't care about autosexing and is looking for exhibition characteristics?

Since there is only one SOP on record that says its Crele, I am not sure we can use that one example as a hard and fast rule about what a Crele is supposed to look like in general, just what an OEGB Crele is supposed to look like.

I do wonder now about the CL pullets that I have seen pictures of posted that show quite a lot of light spots on the back and body. I think that the conclusion was that the spots were atypical, but now I wonder if this is one manifestation of the Crele pattern and it simply indicates that the birds are more crisply barred as in the OEGB?

 

[KPenley]

There are two breeds that have been accepted into the APA SOP that have a Crele color variety: OEG (1996) and OEGB (1976). The APA has not recognized the Crele Leghorn as a variety by the printing of the latest (2010) printing. (unless I am missing one--please do correct me if I am wrong)

There have been some revisions added to the newsletter and the yearbooks. Let me check as it might just be the Marans added.

I do wonder now about the CL pullets that I have seen pictures of posted that show quite a lot of light spots on the back and body. I think that the conclusion was that the spots were atypical, but now I wonder if this is one manifestation of the Crele pattern and it simply indicates that the birds are more crisply barred as in the OEGB?

I've wondered the same about the "mottling". In fact I was corrected last year when I described the spotting as mottling and was told it was barring by a breeder in the UK. I've been told by multiple geneticists that the Cream variety is a cream crele pattern based on the barring over Duckwing pattern quoted by Chickat earlier...so I think Crele still makes sense as a new variety name for the birds lacking ig/ig...but I think that will be up to the new non-Cream variety SOP Committee. Congratulations on your appointment as Chair Kathy!!!

 

[cooliechick]

Hello all,
I am new to the Cream Legbar. I bought a young cockerel and three pullets, so I have a young group to get up to maturity. Will be worming them soon as I do not like the way they are looking.

I also have Penedesencas... and they are quite rare. They come in five colors in the USA. Partridge, crele, wheaten, Emporanesa ( white), and black. I have mostly partridge but I do have one crele pullet and one white rooster whom I believe may be a "sport". I bought 7 of them from a hatchery as that is the only place I could find more at that time. Three, I bought from a local person, and they are fairly nice hens. I will have to play around to see what I can figure out on the Crele and on the white rooster as he is not a true white... has grey legs and faint yellow over his wings. I do know the Penedesenca is not an approved breed yet in the USA, but, there are people who want to make this happen. I hope that answers a few of the questions I saw posted earlier.

Here is a website for the Penedesencas. http://www.penedesencausa.com/home.html

 

[chrissyr]

Wow, thank you all for the great info. That all helps so much. I guess I was seeing so much to work on , I didn't know where to start.@KPenley he is young, only about 5 months. I know he needs more time but the others have bigger body type. And I just don't have the room to grow them all out to see. So I realize I may be jumping the gun calling him scrawny , but I've got to cut down on some here

 

[normanack]

Hello all,
I am new to the Cream Legbar. I bought a young cockerel and three pullets, so I have a young group to get up to maturity. Will be worming them soon as I do not like the way they are looking.
. . . .

Sounds like you have two very exciting breeds!
What's up with the Cream Legbars? How do they look?

 

[ChicKat]

I've wondered the same about the "mottling". In fact I was corrected last year when I described the spotting as mottling and was told it was barring by a breeder in the UK. I've been told by multiple geneticists that the Cream variety is a cream crele pattern based on the barring over Duckwing pattern quoted by Chickat earlier...so I think Crele still makes sense as a new variety name for the birds lacking ig/ig...but I think that will be up to the new non-Cream variety SOP Committee. Congratulations on your appointment as Chair Kathy!!!

Thanks Kestlyn, ---

now we need to see if there is enough interest to go forward. I think that a lot of chickens we have seen would fit in the category - and I think that dretd has pointed out some very detailed and distinctive ways to differentiate them.