Cream Legbars

[henless]

Again very very VERY helpful! One wonders if by selecting for the lighter colors that are more popular/show-winning now (Rees-like features), some folks have inadvertently selected for the presence of factors interfering with auto sexing - that could certainly explain the particularly rapid loss of auto sexing in some hands.

So many different things to be aware of when making these breeding decisions...

- Ant Farm

I've wondered this myself. I'm not versed in chicken genetics, but this has crossed my mine. It seems there have been more problems with auto sexing and green eggs since the light to very light birds have started showing up.

What attracted me to the breed was first the vibrant colors. The roosters just glowed, and I loved the way the hens were colored. Then you have the gorgeous blue eggs and auto sexing on top, it made for a perfect chicken. I do like the cream colors, but the original colors was what I saw first and feel in love with.

I hope that people in the pursuit of the perfect color, don't lose sight of what this breed was developed for.

 

[ChicKat]

I've wondered this myself. I'm not versed in chicken genetics, but this has crossed my mine. It seems there have been more problems with auto sexing and green eggs since the light to very light birds have started showing up.

What attracted me to the breed was first the vibrant colors. The roosters just glowed, and I loved the way the hens were colored. Then you have the gorgeous blue eggs and auto sexing on top, it made for a perfect chicken. I do like the cream colors, but the original colors was what I saw first and feel in love with.

I hope that people in the pursuit of the perfect color, don't lose sight of what this breed was developed for.

X2

Strangely also - there could be a bit of interpretation divergence on thinking that the CL must appear monochromatic to be 'correct' IMO. Here is a quote from R.C. Punnett dated 1957:

CREAM LEGBAR
“It may be described as a Brown
Leghorn on a cream basis, to which has
been added the barring factor causing
it to be autosexing. It is also crested
and lays a blue egg”
R.C. Punnett 1957

so that may be as close as we could get to telephoning him up and asking for clarification. ;O)

When someone tells me that the CL that looks so remote from "a Brown Leghorn on a Cream Basis" that it could almost pass for a very inferior cuckoo- something or other - I do tend to raise an eyebrow.

IF i was seeking a B&W appearance for my flock -- I would for certain get an Alpenzeller Spitahauben! Love the way that they look. Love Cream Brabanters too --

I am just like you, in that I prefer the CL that looks unique and distinctive..... Did a whole thread about the correctness of that last year.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ection-for-alternative-legbars-sop-discussion

You can skip to the end and read the final conclusions and summary because it is a l-o-n-g thread. For my flock - I will be keeping and breeding into the future the 'colorful' ones similar in many respects to the photos of the Applegarth birds pictured there, and I will always make autosexing the number 1 priority (although my hoolignas are so easy to autosex, they don't even need to dry off!)--- and blue eggs -way way way way up to the top of priorities.


boy!!

Girl left, boy right!
Yay Cream Legbars!!!

Just to add -- if you go to the Club's Website, and check out the Breed Guide (navigation bar - second item from the bottom - right above site map)--- Club member Lou Austin made a list of the required and allowable colors on a CL. Strangely the WHITE is - 'some white permitted' in the SOP -- just like 'some chestnut permitted' -- and you would think from the perspective of some -- that white is required, AND...as fearful of some chestnut as those folks ARE they embrace the white that, as I recall is phrased identically - ( i.e.some permitted). correct me if I am wrong. That is certainly my view.

It remains my very strong hope that enough of us will keep CLs that heark back to the Applegarth look that we will have enough genetics to keep our chosen approach strong and healthy long long into the future.

 

[gootziecat]

2X to you ChicKat! I applaude you.

 

[caychris]

The UK standard allows for blue, green or olive eggs... The proposed US standard omits olive, but still allows blue or green...

Wouldnt the olive color signify the presence of brown egg genes. If I recall the brown egg gene would have only come from the original barring gene contributor. Or as recessive some how on one of the other breeds normally laying white or blue eggs. Im wondering if you can trace the barring influence to egg color.

 

[terrip824]

Such good questions.

There is a B&W diagram of exactly what the E-Locus looks like in chick down. Some non-wild types look a bit similar---and drat -- I cannot put my hands on the diagram right now right now. The author was studying downs.

The definite, clear, unbroken, dorsal stripe that is dark -- and forms a distinct - clear V on the female's forehead is one sign of e+. slightly broken, sometimes shows eb (brown) and completely broken is often eWh (wheaten) -- on the E-Locus -- Sorry I don't have it I will post when I encounter it. -- So starting with your chicks -- yes you should be able to tell the e+ (Wild type ) and select them for breeding. Of course that light head blotch on the boys will indicate a nice dose of B/B for the double factor barring gene. Autosexing has never been a difficulty with my hooligans -- they have other things that need work. :O) -- but I think that years ago when we did a survey and people selected Autosexing as the Number 1 trait of the CL that they were right on target........

Luckily for me -- I was able to attend a seminar that was presented by Grant Brereton who is the UK Plumage genetics expert, author of numbers of books on chicken breeding and chicken genetics, a Class A GBPC judge, and editor of Fancy Fowl magazine -- and a really great to meet and fun guy as well as someone with encyclopedic knowledge -- and one thing he told our session was that if a male has no black on his saddles -- then he is wheaten. -- so when I see a CL male with pure white saddles - I am suspicious of what may underly his E-Locus. Again -- it takes many many many years to have a lot of expertise, it is dimly possible that I could have mis-understood but it was kind of jaw dropping so I asked twice. If I had a male that had no black in the barring on his saddles (or no very distinct darkness contrasting the light -- but rather pure light )-- I wouldn't use him for breeding if I was having difficulty with autosexing.

And yes again -- the browns that turn blue eggs green will be difficult to eradicate -- (which is why I don't want any green influence in my flock -- ) --- by selecting and using blues -- you should be able to get to blue.

Those with insights and experience with these phenom. - please weigh in.

Thank you both for the genetics info. So there is to be black on a cockerels saddle feathers, what about his hackle feathers? I have an 8 week old Rees line cockerel who has " strange" colored hackles already. It is hard to see in the pic but they are mostly white.

No barring. He's had this for about a month now. His brothers look like they should. The SOP says cream with sparsely grey. Is this what they mean? Because it is very funky looking. I have 2 pullets with the broken "V" and 4 without .So far they appear to be developing equally with the others. I am photo documenting the growth and changes between the light and dark pullets. I have 2 light colored, 2 dark, and 1 medium brown. The only thing I've noticed is that the light ones have developed cream faster than the darker chicks. My darkest chick is actually showing gold at this point not cream. As for egg color, I got these as day olds. But I had previously ordered eggs from the same breeder. None hatched because of my wonderful postal delivery service

He has 2 pens and the eggs were labeled accordingly. The eggs from pen 2 were more green than I expected. But were definitely blue eggs. I have since learned these were GFF line B birds. I received the most from pen 3 which were Rees line roosters over GFF line C hens. There was a noticeable color difference. They were bluer. But not "robins egg blue" which I'm told is the most desirable color. My current group are from pen 3. I'll be in the waiting for an egg in the 2016 gang. I've been breeding birds for 5 years and I have put some nice Ameraucanas out there. But that is a very cutthroat group. I have found breeders of CCL to be a more laid back and willing to share their info group.

The chickens don't care what color their eggs are, just when are we bringing the treats

.

 

[KPenley]

Thank you both for the genetics info. So there is to be black on a cockerels saddle feathers, what about his hackle feathers? I have an 8 week old Rees line cockerel who has " strange" colored hackles already. It is hard to see in the pic but they are mostly white.

No barring. He's had this for about a month now. His brothers look like they should. The SOP says cream with sparsely grey. Is this what they mean? Because it is very funky looking. I have 2 pullets with the broken "V" and 4 without .So far they appear to be developing equally with the others. I am photo documenting the growth and changes between the light and dark pullets. I have 2 light colored, 2 dark, and 1 medium brown. The only thing I've noticed is that the light ones have developed cream faster than the darker chicks. My darkest chick is actually showing gold at this point not cream. As for egg color, I got these as day olds. But I had previously ordered eggs from the same breeder. None hatched because of my wonderful postal delivery service

He has 2 pens and the eggs were labeled accordingly. The eggs from pen 2 were more green than I expected. But were definitely blue eggs. I have since learned these were GFF line B birds. I received the most from pen 3 which were Rees line roosters over GFF line C hens. There was a noticeable color difference. They were bluer. But not "robins egg blue" which I'm told is the most desirable color. My current group are from pen 3. I'll be in the waiting for an egg in the 2016 gang. I've been breeding birds for 5 years and I have put some nice Ameraucanas out there. But that is a very cutthroat group. I have found breeders of CCL to be a more laid back and willing to share their info group.

The chickens don't care what color their eggs are, just when are we bringing the treats

.

No, black is not a color for the Cream Variety of Legbars, though there will be a variety of grays and there should be gray in the saddle and hackle feathers (some people refer to grays as black, though birds with lots of black are probably better suited to the Crele Variety). Your little cockerel is about 6 months too young to be able to start evaluating his hackle feathers, as they will change with each set of feathers, but they look to have a lovely start. Please give him some more time to grow.
"Hackle: cream, sparsely barred with gray" just means that the predominant color in the hackle should be cream with uneven gray barring. It should not look like the even barring of a PBR, but almost like little dashes or "v"s of gray from a couple of feet away. If you look at an individual hackle feather you should see a cream feather with little lines of gray. Does that make sense? Best wishes with your CLs!

This is an old picture of Jack when he was a cockerel, but he has pretty good hackle feathering though we're still working on getting better defined barring in the saddle. There is so much that goes into genetics. Sometimes a Cock with uneven or minimal gray saddle barring is simply needing more melanin and their wild type is correct. Remember that the ideal saddle should also appear lighter than the hackles since the edges are cream. An ideal saddle feather will kind of look like they have little gray dots/dashes going down the center of the feathers.

 

[MeepBeep]

A return to the origins of the 'Canadian' line cream legbars...

3 of the 4 viable eggs that are supposedly from a non-Greenfire Canadian line have hatched, and one is a 'white sport' so I strongly believe at this point that the claimed 'Canadian' line has lineage to Greenfire's pre-Rees lines that were throwing the 'white sports'...

 

[ChicKat]

A return to the origins of the 'Canadian' line cream legbars...

3 of the 4 viable eggs that are supposedly from a non-Greenfire Canadian line have hatched, and one is a 'white sport' so I strongly believe at this point that the claimed 'Canadian' line has lineage to Greenfire's pre-Rees lines that were throwing the 'white sports'...

Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for the info.

 

[ChicKat]

Thank you both for the genetics info. So there is to be black on a cockerels saddle feathers, what about his hackle feathers? I have an 8 week old Rees line cockerel who has " strange" colored hackles already. It is hard to see in the pic but they are mostly white.

No barring. He's had this for about a month now. His brothers look like they should. The SOP says cream with sparsely grey. Is this what they mean? Because it is very funky looking. I have 2 pullets with the broken "V" and 4 without .So far they appear to be developing equally with the others. I am photo documenting the growth and changes between the light and dark pullets. I have 2 light colored, 2 dark, and 1 medium brown. The only thing I've noticed is that the light ones have developed cream faster than the darker chicks. My darkest chick is actually showing gold at this point not cream. As for egg color, I got these as day olds. But I had previously ordered eggs from the same breeder. None hatched because of my wonderful postal delivery service

He has 2 pens and the eggs were labeled accordingly. The eggs from pen 2 were more green than I expected. But were definitely blue eggs. I have since learned these were GFF line B birds. I received the most from pen 3 which were Rees line roosters over GFF line C hens. There was a noticeable color difference. They were bluer. But not "robins egg blue" which I'm told is the most desirable color. My current group are from pen 3. I'll be in the waiting for an egg in the 2016 gang. I've been breeding birds for 5 years and I have put some nice Ameraucanas out there. But that is a very cutthroat group. I have found breeders of CCL to be a more laid back and willing to share their info group.

The chickens don't care what color their eggs are, just when are we bringing the treats

.

Yes, KPeney's summary is very good... And I'm sure that there are some solid birds -- white, and red etc. that may not be based on Wheaten and do lack black in their saddles So I think that rule-of-thumb was more for the complex patterned breeds not the solid colors -- and I do think of black and slate gray kind of the same -- because true black in chickens has to have a beetle green shimmer right? ahhh chickens. --

I do have the formulae book here -- 'Genetics of Chicken Colours The Basics' by Sigrid Van Dort - David Hancock -- - and for example buff orpingtons a very familiar breed, and no black in saddles -- are eWh (wheaten) as I said, but can also be eb (brown). IF you ever get a chance to review this book go for it -- it is about $78 I think ....so tell your local library that everyone raising chickens should have access to it as a reference. ;O)

Cream Legbar males go through a LOT of color changes in my experience -- so please be sure to keep posting as they grow -- and how great that you are doing a comparision of your chicks via photos. Very valuable IMO.

 

[sol2go]

X2

Strangely also - there could be a bit of interpretation divergence on thinking that the CL must appear monochromatic to be 'correct' IMO.
<edited>
Just to add -- if you go to the Club's Website, and check out the Breed Guide (navigation bar - second item from the bottom - right above site map)--- Club member Lou Austin made a list of the required and allowable colors on a CL. Strangely the WHITE is - 'some white permitted' in the SOP -- just like 'some chestnut permitted' -- and you would think from the perspective of some -- that white is required, AND...as fearful of some chestnut as those folks ARE they embrace the white that, as I recall is phrased identically - ( i.e.some permitted). correct me if I am wrong. That is certainly my view.

It remains my very strong hope that enough of us will keep CLs that heark back to the Applegarth look that we will have enough genetics to keep our chosen approach strong and healthy long long into the future.

Hi ChicKat, popping into this discussion -

What I am seeing with hens and roosters that I identify as cream, is that the cream hackle and saddle feathers are in fact a cream color as compared to the white barring in the wings and tail feathers of the males; when I read "some white permitted" I think that may reference the white streaks that can appear in the tail feathers of the males, and possibly the white at the base of those tail feathers. In contrast, the cream that I am seeing is not the same color that I see on the patch work quilt colors of a gold or split for gold rooster, or the gold hackles of females, which also have a liberal application of gold dust across their body feathers.

The cream offspring have been auto-sexing, blue egg layers, with crests, tail barring and nice wide feathers, so I'm happy with what I have to work with. I appreciate the work others put into their breeding stock because we can only pick up where someone else left off.