Creole Dorkings????

[heritagehabitatfarms]

any time you cross lines u risk something like this showing its ugly head... it is more pronounced i think in some of the really old breeds that are not in that great of shape here in the USA... u can take 2 very nice SQ or SOP quality bloodlines that have been line bred for 10+ years and cross them and come out with a real mess of cull birds... i think the main problem is just the way chickens are put together genetically... i have read that there is 10X more genes in chickens than in horses or cows... for example there is 12 different genes associated with foot feathering so u can have 2 birds with the exact same visual looking foot feathering but have totally different genes involved... Ive never read anything that says there is more than one 5th toe gene but it must have a very complex relationship with a bunch of other related genes... i raise Fav's and Houdans and have run the gantlet with the 5th toe on them...

I would say this is just one thing u are going to have to cull for... i really don't think u should stop the project or quit shipping eggs i just think that every one needs to understand that there is a reason this is called a Project... just just my 2cents...

Very discouraged tonight! I have worked so hard on this project! If the birds have some other genes tucked away in their lineage I will stop this project immediately. If there is some other genetic explanation for the odd toe and leg wash I may reconsider. I am so sorry if I let any of you that have become my friends down, I truly love this breed and was attempting to recreate the crele coloring/pattern that I saw on feather site and believe is part of the history of these unique and wonderful birds! Will let you know what I find out, and definitely won't be selling any more eggs until I have some better answers.

 

[joyous]

Thanks Heritage for your encouragement! I have not considered that before as I am a novice to chicken genetics and have been trying to educate myself! For me, culling is not a problem as we plan on processing most of the birds for our own freezer. I figure that I give them a wonderful life until they are used for food, so by my using them, I am not a consumer to the chickens not treated so humanely from the supermarket. I certainly appreciate your view point!

 

[Kilsharion]

Very discouraged tonight! I have worked so hard on this project! If the birds have some other genes tucked away in their lineage I will stop this project immediately. If there is some other genetic explanation for the odd toe and leg wash I may reconsider. I am so sorry if I let any of you that have become my friends down, I truly love this breed and was attempting to recreate the crele coloring/pattern that I saw on feather site and believe is part of the history of these unique and wonderful birds! Will let you know what I find out, and definitely won't be selling any more eggs until I have some better answers.

**hugs** I will say that the birds, so far, have been wonderful in temperament. As for the red...when it hatched out I was scratching my head thinking "what in the world?"...There's no chipmunk going on - she's a true redhead. But...I have a chipmunk that I was very excited about, until I saw the four toes.

The dark wash on Lucky has faded over time, and the rest of her colouration is lovely. She's a black with red bleed through. I couldn't breed her for the Crele project (nor the other three blacks); but, I do have to say that I love the subtle patterning going on in her feathers.

As for what hatched out - I had five of the twelve hatch. I had two that never developed and three bloodrings. One early death. One was a late death in shell. One had to be culled

One of the blacks. If you look, you can see the dark wash on the top of her foot. She's actually middle of the road. One of the others has such a dark wash, the legs look almost black from the front. I was taking these by myself, though, so couldn't get a really good shot.


This is the red that I have not been able to identify. I wouldn't consider it a Dorking - it doesn't have the markings for it, it doesn't seem to me. Just about solid red.



This is the shot of the earliest hatchers....I had three more Dorkings and three more cream legbars hatch out about 24 hours after these guys. The black is there by the feeder (she practically lives in the feeder the little glutton), the red is curled up next to the middle CL. I only had CL eggs in with the Dorking eggs - nothing else...so - the solid red really made me scratch my head.

I wouldn't say stop shipping. Project birds are expected to be heavily culled, I'd think. Just surprised at the pervasiveness of the dark wash on the legs. One of the blacks (if we discounted the dark wash) would have been culled due to the toes being all messed up (one not formed properly and the other positioned poorly). It's always a crap shoot when you're working with project birds. I am not surprised that at some point, someone, somewhere outcrossed to a BR. It makes sense in a way if the breeder was having serious problems with the line and was more interested in colouration than egg colour, etc. They could cull out the dark wash, keep the fair legs and continue on. It does help explain the tint to the eggs (which is more pervasive in American Dorkings than in English/Australian Dorkings) as well.

 

[yinepu]

I would be very interested in seeing your pictures! There is a slight possibility I could have accidentally put an icelandic egg in as I collect my eggs at the same time, but they are much smaller and only have 4 toes. There is absolutely no possibility of interbreeding though as I keep the two breeds completely separated at all times and they never free range together! I am going to email glenn drowns at sand hill preservation center where I got my Dorkings to make sure of the history. Glenn is a science teacher who has studied genetics for 30 years so I know he will be straight with me. Meanwhile I have lots of chicks due over the next two weeks so I will post pictures and compare!

I just got a message from new york with my eggs and a hatch of 13 out of 14 eggs! Healthy with several chipmunks! Bad news is she got four with only 4 toes and four with 4 /5 toes. This leads me to believe there must be some other breed in the Dorkings background like kilsharon said! I thought at first I could have gotten some of my other eggs mixed in, but I am absolutely positive that my Dorkings were not exposed to any other breed on my place! I keep them completely separate so the only other answer is from where I got my birds! I will get to the bottom of this and let you all know!

Very discouraged tonight! I have worked so hard on this project! If the birds have some other genes tucked away in their lineage I will stop this project immediately. If there is some other genetic explanation for the odd toe and leg wash I may reconsider. I am so sorry if I let any of you that have become my friends down, I truly love this breed and was attempting to recreate the crele coloring/pattern that I saw on feather site and believe is part of the history of these unique and wonderful birds! Will let you know what I find out, and definitely won't be selling any more eggs until I have some better answers.

Before you panic and assume that there has been outcrossing with other breeds.. please consider recessive genes..

they could easily explain any dark wash down the legs as well as missing toes.

for the record.. all of mine have 5 toes.. every single one (and I have hatched out a lot of your eggs)
I only have a couple with the dark wash.. now if it were a barred rock in the mix I would assume I would have a lot more birds with the dark wash.. but mine are minimal


Here are the "odd birds" I was referring to.. lol.. now what color would YOU call them? (I do realize they will change a bit more as time goes by.. I just thought these were interesting)

Chick 1:





and chick 2 (this one is more "silver" based that chick 1):

 

[joyous]

thanks guys, for all the encouragement! Yinepu,I have gotten results very similar to yours, some dark leg washes, one exactly like your first picture, and I'm expecting several hatches in the next week or two I will haven't heard back from Glenn yet so I guess I will just keep on for now but maybe wait to sell anymore until I learn more. How exciting and frustrating this project has been! guess anything worth having is worth working for! have a great Memorial weekend everyone !

 

[Wax Myrtle]

 

[joyous]

Good news! I have three hatches of Dorkings! Mama hens do a much better job than I do at hatching Thank goodness! I am not sure how many I have yet as I am trying to leave them alone as much as possible, and I have some still hatching. I do know I have lots of chipmunks! I have not examined closely for the toes and black washed legs so that will be an update in another week.

More interesting (good) news. I have talked to a breeder in florida, who says that the black washed legs probably came from mixing with a black line of Dorkings (as Sand Hill has tried to improve their black dorkings) and she has also had some four toes dorkings which of course she culls. Another friend got some similar info on another forum Only one person of all my hatching eggs had some four toes, and I have had one. Black washed legs are a problem that I will have to cull, along with any other imperfection.

I am now confidant that my Dorkings are pure!!! As with any other project the hard part is culling heavily. I am hoping to get some Chicks from Dick Horstman for further breeding.

I have had two lines of thought on here, one is to use a sex linked Cuckoo roo out of my second breeding and breed with a red hen. My other is to use my Chipmunks for breeding with red. I think I will have several breeding pens and try each suggestion. I would like to post pictures when I have time of my young sexlinked roos and get opinions on which ones to use. One has very vivid barring but is much lighter than the others...very striking! The others are Darker with less distinct barring.

Hopefully pictures to come!

 

[joyous]

Some of my chicks. Very promising hatch.

 

[yinepu]

Good news! I have three hatches of Dorkings! Mama hens do a much better job than I do at hatching Thank goodness! I am not sure how many I have yet as I am trying to leave them alone as much as possible, and I have some still hatching. I do know I have lots of chipmunks! I have not examined closely for the toes and black washed legs so that will be an update in another week.

More interesting (good) news. I have talked to a breeder in florida, who says that the black washed legs probably came from mixing with a black line of Dorkings (as Sand Hill has tried to improve their black dorkings) and she has also had some four toes dorkings which of course she culls. Another friend got some similar info on another forum Only one person of all my hatching eggs had some four toes, and I have had one. Black washed legs are a problem that I will have to cull, along with any other imperfection.

I am now confidant that my Dorkings are pure!!! As with any other project the hard part is culling heavily. I am hoping to get some Chicks from Dick Horstman for further breeding.

I have had two lines of thought on here, one is to use a sex linked Cuckoo roo out of my second breeding and breed with a red hen. My other is to use my Chipmunks for breeding with red. I think I will have several breeding pens and try each suggestion. I would like to post pictures when I have time of my young sexlinked roos and get opinions on which ones to use. One has very vivid barring but is much lighter than the others...very striking! The others are Darker with less distinct barring.

Hopefully pictures to come!

Congrats!

See.. i told you it was just recessive genes.. and not outcrossing...

 

[joyous]

Thanks! Just had to be sure" back on track!