Critque 2yro RPSI gelding

[Equest94]

So... it's about time for another project horse. Yes, he's still a baby... he will be turning 2yrs in June. I have worked with youngsters before, so he shouldn't be much of a problem.


Currently, as an almost 2 yro, is 15.2-3hh. He is estimated to mature to 16.2hh+

This many get confusing, but he is an Oldenburg (sire) X Selle Francis (dam) cross, he's recognized as a Holsteiner but is branded and registered under the RPSI (Rheinland-Pfalz-Sarr [aka: Zweibrucken]).


I'm thinking show jumper...



Pictures:

^^^ As a 2-day old (aww! cutie!)

The following are from when he was 3 or 4 months old:

This is probably the only picture really critique-able:

^^^ NOTE: Here he is pictured as a weanling... he still has to grow up, fill out, and get muscle. (and fyi...he was trimmed a tad short, so his pasterns aren't really that steep, so I've been told.)

Newest picture:

^^^ Yeah he's fat, he's furry, he's growing, and he's standing parked out and at a weird angle.... (she warned me that it was a terrible picture)

video:

Sire: Coromino
http://www.heritagemanorfarm.com/coromino_main.php





So let me know what you think! Thanks in advance.

UPDATE:
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g.../April_2008/?action=view&current=7dfc08a6.pbw
^^^ Picture slide show

Ok, he still has his winter coat, he's a tiny bit thin because of the hay issue and it being winter, and his hooves still look horrible... I know has a lot of growing to do, but those legs look horrible! He appears to be cow hocked and toed out on all 4s... so idk...

I'll still have to see, but it's such a shame. He's such a pretty boy with such a nice movement... I just am afraid he's not going to be capable of doing what I want him to do...

Well, I'm glad I asked for more pics...

 

[helmstead]

I like him a LOT. If you compare dad's loin attachment, croup, shoulder and pasterns, he looks just like him, and since dad is a proven jumper...I'd imagine he can follow in his hoof-steps.

Would love to see a photo of the dam. Has she done anything?

I think he's a bit long to be a good dressage horse, but has the ideal look (perhaps a tish long, but that's being picky) for O/F work. And, gosh, if he isn't scopy enough for jumpers, I'd bet he'd be a killer hunter. Rheinlanders are gaining in popularity on the open hunter circuit.

 

[chickbea]

I am by no means even knowledgeable about his lineage, and certainly no expert on conformation, but I like him.

I'm throwing out that last pic

- but from the others he looks to me like he has a lot of innate class.

 

[Equest94]

Thank you both for the replies.


Quote:
I haven't heard much about his dam's performance..all I know is she has been a broodmare for many years now. This is what it says about her:

Dam: Khrista is a modern, French bred mare by the 1987 Bundeschampion First Class, (also a Five Star stallion with the ISR/Oldenburg NA) who is by the famed Furioso II, and out of the States Premium Mare Chinchilla by Zeus. This damline is one of Oldenburg's most prized marelines, and is in the bloodlines of many successful show horses. Khrista's damsire Oleandre is by Jalisco B (by Alme) who is the sire of Quidam De Revel. Oleandre was shown successfully in the Hunters on the east coast, qualifying for the big indoor circuits, before his retirement to stud duties. Also in her pedigree is the Thoroughbred Horse of the year Keelo, who sired the champion conformation hunter Bit of Class.

 

[pips&peeps]

I thought he looked a bit long in the back also. When riding english with as long as his back is the weight of the rider is not spread out and could cause back issues.

I personally would ride this guy in a western saddle. I am by no means an expert on this sort of stuff, but I have a 16.2 HH paint with lots of thoroughbred in him and he has a long back also. I tried riding him english and he ended up with a sore back.

 

[helmstead]

Wow, Keelo and Furioso II...so wish there was a picture! Guess all you have to determine is his scope, because he was bred for both hunters or jumpers! His dad has some spectacular knees

in those O/F shots.

Pips - it wasn't the english saddle hurting your horses' back because it was an english saddle - it was an english saddle that didn't fit your horse that caused the soreness.

 

[Equest94]

^^^OH yeah! They said they did very minimal free jumping him to see if he got it in him (nothing higher than 2ft) and he loved it. They had a hard time getting him to stop. lol. IF you can tell from his free lunging video, he has a HUGE stride! I see jumper for sure - there's so much hock drive and those knees!

.

-----------------------
See... I personally do not think his back his very long. He still has A LOT of growing to do. I have worked with many youngsters before who have looked much more unproportioned than he does at this age and they all have turned out to be pretty compact, especially once they get into proper work and develop more muscling. If you look at his weanling confo picture, from where his withers end to where his loin begins, you can see that he doesn't have much length of back at all... what makes him look so odd is that he is currently a bit bum high in his stage of growth and appears to have a steeper angle to the point of his hip- thus giving him that long appearance. In the last picture... it's just a current pictures of him I was given, his front end is closer to the camera and his back end his slightly angled away givig him a very distorted looking body, so we will just disregard that one, lol (it was more of a "look how big he is compared to me" picture, not so much a conformation critiquing one).

The thing that has be a bit worried is that his pastern seem a bit long and appear really steep in his front legs, which would be detrimental for a career in jumping... again he's still growing and babies legs are close to adult size at birth, so it takes a while for them to grow into them, but as an almost 2 yro - I'd imagine they be a little better by now... Granted, he's hooves are trimmed by the farrier routinely and they look to be done a tad short which would result in the pasterns steepness...but I mean if this is done so every 6 weeks and there he's pictured as a yearling and at the bottom as almost 2 and the pastern look that bad for a year... I'm thinking it's time to watch what this farrier is doing especially since this could also cause poor ligament and tendon formation.

Is it just me, or does anyone see what I'm talking about too?

Do you think it's anything serious or am I being over cautious?



I'm becoming really interested him him...I'm just debating on whether or not I should actually make this more of a strong idea and go down to seem him for myself...

(I've always been "iffy" about buying babies...at such a young age you never know what you're going to end up with, but the more I see him, the more I can't stop thinking about him. lol!)

 

[patandchickens]

I don't think he's long in the back at all.

He is cute, and has a good pedigree, but (sorry if you don't want to hear this, but you *did* bring it up yourself

) I am really pretty concerned about those front lower legs. His hooves are *significantly* out in front of his cannons -- a line dropped along the *front* (not even the center) of the cannons barely hits the back of his heel bulbs, it looks to me. Long pasterns like that (and personally I do not think they are notably upright - just long), that set the feet so far ahead of where the weight of the horse is applied, are REALLY NOT a good thing for soundness+jumping. I have seen way too many horses like that just not last, no matter what their talent may be. In fact they do not necessarily stay reliably sound for dressage either, suspensory problems in particular but a whole host of other things. A long neck (as he has) just makes it worse.

Honestly, I apologize that this isn't what you want to hear but cute as he is and much as I like the breeding he represents I would not want to pay actual money for him. If someone wanted me to train him for them, gratis, then fine, but I think that he would be an unwise place to put money.

Also, especially in view of his pasterns, I would do absolutely no more than sit on him (like, get him used to tack and in-hand work, not much if any longeing, and then literally sit on him and walk a couple laps around the ring, nothing more) until he is AT LEAST a year older than he is now, probably two.

Sorry, he IS a cutie.

Good luck whatever you decide to do,

Pat

 

[Equest94]

Quote:
Believe me, this is something I want to hear (as I did bring it up and ask about it) and is what I saw to be a conformation flaw.

See, I heard of many foals (especially WB breeds that mature slowly) who tend to "outgrow" these issues... but I'd think by now, there should have at least been some improvement. Granted, he was trimmed a bit sort and really doesn't have much of a toe or heel, I still find it to be just as detrimental to a maturing horse to have the same farrier mistake done to him for the past year as it is to be born with this type of flaw.

Honestly, by the way he's able to move out in the video, it appears there's no issue, but then a look at the stance pictures and walla. I do have the impression that the first picture was taken of him in a "half step" where one leg was slightly back, and one was a bit forward, but his weight centered between them (because the hind leg doesn't appear to have"true" weight on it as if he was preparing to take a step)...

I worried about his front pasterns so I requested for some better and more "official" conformation shots - all squared up and pictures of the front (chest down-hooves), the sides, and the back (haunches down to hooves) and of course - standing as perpendicular as possible to the camera man.

If I am going to pay all this money into investing in a top Show jumper (prospect) I do not want an unsellable burn out. PLEASE, if there is anything else that looks faulty please bring it to my attention.

(FYI - just for the record, I do not officially break/begin to ride WBs or any other slow to mature breed until they are at least 3 and it's all baby steps from there....no official jumping until 5 or however long it takes for their minds to mature - lol!)

THANK YOU.

 

[bluerose]

Ok ok ok ok ok.

First off- that back is NOT long- and ANY saddle will make a horse backsore if it fit incorrectly. Due to their size it's very easy to put an english saddle too far forward... wham, sore back. Western saddles make horses sore all the time too (I actually have had much worse luck with western saddles than with english saddles).

My DWB mare has a longer back than that and as long as her saddle fits and is far enough back, she's fine. Schools 4th level with ease.

Second- his legs are fine- FIX HIS FEET ('trimmed short' my ass... trimmed BADLY) and he will do fine.

Third- don't do anything other than first 10-15 rides until 4y/o.. no jumping until 6 at least... otherwise you are asking for lameness issues down the road.

Fourth... keep him outside, barefoot trimmed, he'll be a sounder better horse for whatever you want to do with him. Just don't use a farrier... find a good trimmer who won't butcher the feet. Education is key

Would be happy to provide sources if you like.

He looks like an excellent prospect for jumping or dressage... I'm not qualified to know confo for upper-level jumping. Just don't screw up his feet! (You wouldn't believe all of the lamenesses I see that are SO PREVENTABLE...

)