Cross Breeding Bantam Cochins of different Colors

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Not sure how it works with cochins, like I said some breeds are different, I know phoenix whites out of silvers, will produce white and silvers as the white they carry is just a gene mutation of the silvers.
But as for rec. whites, from what I have read and seen, all offspring reguardless of the other parent color will be white or black.
Dom. whites are the ones used to keep some color in the crossings, but still takes 2 generations (once back to the wild colored bird)for that to happen most times.
Tim and Sonora Silkies both can explain it better than I, but that's how it works. There are 1 or 2 other types I believe in the white birds too, this would have to be what you are running into with the cross of black - white getting all black, because to my knowlwdge the black is the main color covered by white. The only other possiblity I can think of is if the white birds , from years of back breeding, possible already carries black markers as well?

 

[Hoosiermomma]

Quote:
Genetics Calculator????? Where?

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Ha, sorry about that, I pasted it in my first post, but went back to look and it didnt register, so let me try it again here.
Try it out, especially with the rec. and dom. whites listed and yall be able to see what I am talking about with their crosses.....


http://kippenjungle.nl/Overzicht.htm#kipcalculator

 

[lilcrow]

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Well..............nz, you're miles over my head, as far as the difference between the dominant vs recessive white gene and which one would be most likely carried in the cochin. I'm so new to this that I'm having to ask about EVERYTHING as it comes up and I just now found out that there was such a thing. How fascinating! This is SO different than horses. What a kick, I love genetics and it's surprises, formulas and puzzles, but it sure takes me a while to be able to catch up. What I DON'T want to do is make a bunch of assumptions and act like I know something that I don't.
Is there some particular historical reason why you think that the white recessive gene is the one carried in cochins, or is it a kind of "sense" that you have about their physical make up,.........or something else?

 

[nzpouter]

just from what I seen in my flock and others....

dominant white is a leaky gene.... means sometimes the colour it's masking still bleed through (example in some of pile colour chickens when you can still see the black etc flecks coming through)...

while rec white gives you that cleaner even cover, some poorer example will show a little coloured feathers every now and then...

in saying that, some white birds breeder sometimes uses both genes in their flock.... so until you do a test mating, you'll never know.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Yep, That's what I was getting at nzpouter,
Dom, allows color leakage,
rec, is always bright white.

Therefore dom. is the one you have to use to make white pattern colors like red pyle, goldneck, etc.
Rec. white just cover all color.
But the only sure fire way to tell is to do some test breeding. Also whites with pale leaking of color in the hackle, saddles and back area, can be signs you have a dom. white bird.

 

[lilcrow]

Wow, I can see where there is so much tweaking that can be done with the colors. No wonder they get so colorful and variable. The real skill being not to fall into the trap of the party colored, hodge-podge or muddy thing.
There's someone in a local club here that has coined a term that makes me cringe - designer chickens.

 

[Henk69]

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Black is not dominant in Horses. Full black or self black that is. This is the most recessive agouti allele.

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Black is not dominant in Horses. Full black or self black that is. This is the most recessive agouti allele.

I beg your pardon, black is a dominant gene in equine. There are MANY variables that control it's expression, but the base color of black is dominant. I think there may be a language or terminology break down going on. In the years that I bred horses FOR color we used the expression dominant and recessive to refer exclusively to the black or red gene. Beyond that, particularly with the black gene, which was the one we all focused on, there were the other controlling factors found on the agouti alleles that controlled how far out onto the body the black was allowed to express, i.e. bay, dark bay, black and so forth. Even within the bays there are so many variants controlling how far up the legs the black will express, on, and on. Then all of us that were breeding for color also were dealing with other genes that would dilute the base color of either black or red. Horses could carry a dun factor gene that was also a dilute gene, but not nearly as much of a diluent as the creme gene. Most of us were focused on working with the creme gene. That also required petitioning AQHA and changing long standing regulations about "white or albino" horses (there is no such thing. You'll never see a pink eyed horse). Anyway, maybe you can see where I'm coming from. Possibly I'm using terminology that is foreign to the poultry industry and I'm miss understanding what you are saying. In horses, at least over here, there is no such term as "self black" used to describe a black horse. I think I know what you're talking about. You're talking about a solid black horse, right? but you know even a solid black horse has some other things going on with it, like does it fade in the sun or not.
I hope we can gain a better understanding of each other, or at least I can gain a better understanding of the poultry terminology and I certainly don't want to offend anyone.

 

[Henk69]

Quote:
Black is not dominant in Horses. Full black or self black that is. This is the most recessive agouti allele.

I beg your pardon, black is a dominant gene in equine. There are MANY variables that control it's expression, but the base color of black is dominant.

We are both wrong or both right...

There is dominant black in horses but it is a "new" discovery and not the common kind.

from http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1297-9686-29-3-403.pdf

...
The existence of a uniform black in horses that is recessive to bay has long been
acknowledged, and accounts for the majority of black horses. This black is assigned
to the Agouti locus in keeping with principles of homology (Wilson, 1910; Wright,
1917; Adalsteinsson, 1976; Lauvergne et al, 1991).
The existence of a dominant black in horses has also long been speculated
(Gremmel, 1939; Castle, 1940a, b, 1951a, b, 1954). The evidence for a dominant
mechanism producing black has been the production of bay or brown foals from
the mating of two black parents. Such instances have usually been from studbook
data, which are suspect owing to the possibility of inaccuracies in the registrations
of animals, or in mistakes of parentage. Another problem with studbook data
for the colors bay, brown and black is one of definition. Various breeders may
have different mental images of these three and consequently studbook records are
probably inaccurate at this level of detail. Dreux (1966) presents evidence for the
existence of a dominant gene contributing to black or dark bay phenotypes in the
French Trotter breed, and mentions that this is rare in horses of European breeding,
having been introduced through an imported American Trotter stallion.
Currently, documentation best fits with the view that the Agouti locus comprises
two alleles, with bay dominant to black (Sponenberg, 1996).
...