Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[HomesteadNowhere]

Yeah with three brown egg laying breeds of hens... I don't think I will be able to count on knowing what eggs came from who without separating.. Hahaha.. But yes that makes sense now.

These are about sheep but the breeding scenarios work out for other animals too.
http://www.critterhaven.biz/info/articles/
http://www.saltmarshranch.com/breeding/british-conservation-breeding.shtml

I'm familiar with breeding with my rabbits, goats,, sheep, and previously guinea pigs. Applying it to chickens is a little different. Thinking in terms of hatching instead of breeding seasons and gestation length.

 

[Kusanar]

Yeah with three brown egg laying breeds of hens... I don't think I will be able to count on knowing what eggs came from who without separating.. Hahaha.. But yes that makes sense now.

These are about sheep but the breeding scenarios work out for other animals too.
http://www.critterhaven.biz/info/articles/
http://www.saltmarshranch.com/breeding/british-conservation-breeding.shtml

I'm familiar with breeding with my rabbits, goats,, sheep, and previously guinea pigs. Applying it to chickens is a little different. Thinking in terms of hatching instead of breeding seasons and gestation length.

You also have the weirdness of with most animals you know who the mother is and may not be sure on the father.. with chickens you usually only have 1 rooster in the pen so only 1 possible father but you haven't a clue on the mother... Added to the fun is the fact that in mammals the male is the one that determines the gender of the baby and in birds it is the female...

 

[U_Stormcrow]

those brown eggs... I read about them, I knew they would be a problem for identification and candling during incubation, but I didn't **understand** just how infuriating that problem would be in practice.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

 

[aliciaplus3]

your stated goals sound similar to mine.

my goals and the breeds I am working with continue to change but my stated goal is to work twords being able to process extra cockerels at 14-16 weeks and have enough meet on them to make an attractive meal(live weight 5 pounds? with processed weight 3.5 pounds or more) while maintaining egg numbers of 180 to 200 a hen per year... now in my world its much easier to keep an eye on the meat side than the egg number side. lol

I am currently working with some red ranger type hens covered by some of my more meaty crossbreed roosters( not 100%sure what they are because their father came to me second hand when he was mature and the gal thought he was a leghorn, he weighed 14 pounds, one of his sons hit 5 pounds live weight at 12 weeks! ) I am also crossing in necked neck, and delaware.

I have a few bresse, I was not as impressed with their laying as I wanted to be, they do have decant meat portions. my bresse cross are some of my favorites. I crossed a wyandotte(gold laced???) rooster over bresse hens and the offspring came out very white with varying shades of blue legs and rose combs (some nice tight rose combs some very messy rose combs) I plan to continue with both the pure bresse hens and their cross-bred daughters in my projects

ok so the 3 dual purpose breeds you have listed all are quoted with a 20 wk maturity rate... in my limited experience with hatchery ( granted have not tried all hatcheries) quality of each of these breeds the ones that reached maturity that fast did not get near as big as the weights you have listed... notice I do not claim to be an expert.

I would probably make bigger strides twords my stated goals if I would concentrate on just those but I keep several additional "flocks" for other goals on the side so my attention gets scattered... I am currently running a green/blue layer flock(for color fun) an austrolorp flock(very broody and great egg numbers), my delaware/white rock flock(size and egg numbers), 3 necked neck flocks( one is black necked necks for my DD) and my "meat" maker flock (this one consist of the biggest roosters I have over rhode island reds and my "red ranger type" hens as well as any other big hen I have)

we have been hatching since 2017 so some of the birds at my house are heinze 57, meaning that I could not honestly tell you what they are but that they are starting to fit some of my ideals. No I am not creating a breed< my hatchlings are too varied in traits> I do hope to start improving/working on breeding the white rock and delaware to the standard of perfection but they only started laying 2 months ago so that will begin this next march??

some folks here have the discipline and organization skills to selectively breed and make marked improvements with their selected breeds, I fall under the "huh wonder what that will do???" heading with some direction

best of luck with your project and keep us posted!

 

[Ridgerunner]

That second link is pretty close to Spiral Breeding in chickens, though you don't do that one year of inbreeding.

There are often two phases of a breeding program. The first is where you try to eliminate some genetic diversity. You determine your goals and select your breeders based on those goals. Say you want a flock that is all barred. You select only barred chickens as breeders to eliminate any genetic diversity that might give you a not-barred chicken. Maye you want large eggs. Only hatch larger eggs to eliminate any genetic diversity that gives you smaller eggs. This is the way breeds are developed and Grand Champion show chickens are developed. Often it includes line breeding, where you pair a father-daughter or mother-son. The loss of genetic diversity if you pair a parent-offspring is the same as if you pair full siblings, but a parent-offspring pairing works better to enhance the specific traits in the parent you want to enhance. It is more pointed. In a sibling to sibling cross the traits handed down are more general or random.

After you get where you want to go genetically you switch to a different breeding system. Breeders typically use something like spiral breeding. Often you use your best rooster in Pen A over the best two or three hens in Pen B to maintain quality regardless of the year hatched. Of course there are all kinds of twists to it. If people are trying to get a new breed approved or maybe trying to develop a new color of a certain breed they work in consortiums. They may swap cockerels every few generations to bring in genetic diversity without losing a lot of what they have gained. If you are breeding for show you may not want to hep your competitors like this.

Hatcheries often use a pen breeding system to maintain genetic diversity. This is where they may have 20 roosters penned with 200 hens. The random mating can maintain genetic diversity for decades provided you have enough chickens mating. One way used for thousands of years on small farms is to bring in an outside rooster every few generations to introduce new genes. The larger the flock the less often you need to do this. I grew up on one of these farms. Every four or five generations Dad would bring in new blood. These methods are not going to breed grand champion chickens as they are too random but they maintain genetic diversity, When you introduce outside genetics you can lose a lot of what you have gained.

I'm sure you understand why you want to maintain genetic diversity. As that article said there can be a fine line between maintaining certain traits and genetic diversity. Good luck!

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

I have so much else to do but this project is bouncing around my head...

Idea 1 would be as stated already here.

Idea 2:
*Pen for each group of hens by breed. With Bresse roos in each. Collect f1 eggs to hatch. (BO1. SLW1. SS1.) Starting hens go to one big layer flock with roos.
*Pens now hold groups by each f1 with 2 best roos.
*first hatch is f1 with same group f1 roo sire. So BO1 with BO1 roo etc. Making f2.
*second hatch rotate the roos.
BO1 x SLW1. SLW1 x SS1. SS1 x BO1.
*third hatch rotate roos again.
BO1 x SS1. SLW1 x BO1. SS1 x SLW1.
*fourth hatch each pen gets a Bresse roo. Making a back cross, 3/4 Bresse 1/4 hen breed.
*now we've had every combination we can see which ones did the best/worst. I can collect the best of each to continue.
This would be possible to do if I can put up temporary dividing wall in the barn through the summer for the three pens. The layer flock would be out in a chickshaw on pasture.
The pens would be 8x12ft which would put me at max 32 chickens per pen. And I'm planning to build a cabinet incubator so I'll be able to hatch alot to choose from. This should keep me from getting to a genetic bottle neck.
??? How long after switching roosters in a breeding group would I have to wait before collecting hatching eggs that would definitely be sired by that rooster? I read from 8 days to a whole month.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I fall under the "huh wonder what that will do???" heading with some direction

I love it. My projects are mostly for fun too. I wanted a red or black mottled green or blue egg layer that was decent for meat. Part way through I decided I'd like them to go broody a lot too. These fit the bill.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Idea 3:
*Three pens as in idea 2. Hatch f1 of each starting hen pen.
*Each pen of f1 lines hatch f2
*Each pen hatch f3
*Now I have three lines of bresse crosses. As in idea 2 now I rotate roos and hatch batches of back cross to Bresse and line cross each line to each other.
Obviously this way takes longer. I have to hatch and cull each generation, wait to maturity, and hatch the next generation. Then finally line cross and see where I'm at.

Of course depending on the separation time needed between moving roos.. I could do test hatches of line crossing at each generation..

 

[Ridgerunner]

??? How long after switching roosters in a breeding group would I have to wait before collecting hatching eggs that would definitely be sired by that rooster? I read from 8 days to a whole month.

It takes about 25 hours for an egg to go through the hens internal egg making factory. It can only be fertilized during the first few minutes of that journey. That means if a mating takes place on a Thursday, Thursday's egg will not be fertile from that mating. Friday's egg might be but don't count on it. Saturday's egg should be.

A rooster does not mate with every hen in his flock every day but he doesn't have to. In the last part of the mating act after the rooster hops off the hen stands up, fluffs up, and shakes. This fluffy shake moves the sperm to a special container near where the egg starts its journey. That sperm can remain viable for over three weeks. Most of us count on two. Two weeks is not enough time for a hen to clear. Many people use three weeks and that usually works, Usually. Four weeks is about as sure as you can get.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

It takes about 25 hours for an egg to go through the hens internal egg making factory. It can only be fertilized during the first few minutes of that journey. That means if a mating takes place on a Thursday, Thursday's egg will not be fertile from that mating. Friday's egg might be but don't count on it. Saturday's egg should be.

A rooster does not mate with every hen in his flock every day but he doesn't have to. In the last part of the mating act after the rooster hops off the hen stands up, fluffs up, and shakes. This fluffy shake moves the sperm to a special container near where the egg starts its journey. That sperm can remain viable for over three weeks. Most of us count on two. Two weeks is not enough time for a hen to clear. Many people use three weeks and that usually works, Usually. Four weeks is about as sure as you can get.

Ahh! Ok that makes sense. I'll just plan on not collecting hatching eggs until four weeks then.