CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[faykokoWV]

Two, I will have to go read my SOP again (believe it or not I don't have it committed to memory!) but my memory - which isn't very good (and why I don't commit things to it) tells me that "shafting" referred to a different color of the main shaft of the feather. This is easily seen on the back where the shaft of the feather is a completely different color that the peppered partridge feathers. On the breast, I will have to go out and look again but I think what you're seeing in the pics is simply a distinction where the barbules are coming off the quill on opposite side making the quill stand out more and the quill is actually the same color as the barbules.

God Bless,

Man I hope you're right. It does look like there is a little beige line down the center of each feather on the chest - I might have to go pluck one out of a hen and see it up close!

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

I have never seen either breed on champion row. Until judges understand them they will never be able to get on champion row. The cock bird above makes a great overall impression but has low wing carriage,a flat spot in the lower chest and probably is too short in the back. Anyone want to comment on the length of back?

w.

Welsummers have placed champion large fowl at one APA sanctioned show at least. Both Welsummers and Barnevelders have been class champions several times. Now...what is the issue with the length of the back? The Dutch exhibition cockerel is not a bad bird (in my opinion, that is) and I don't think his wing carriage is all that low. He is not in a natural pose, so his tail is lower than what it probably would be, and that may also impact the way he carries his wings in the picture. There are similar issues with the light brown Leghorn cock birds in photo sessions. And, by the way, I HAVE seen light brown Leghorns placed as class champions when they have absolutely stunning color but terrible type (flat chested, poor back line, major comb fault, low wing carriage, etc.). Has anybody checked out this breed lately, especially the bantams? Apparently, some judges sacrifice anything of type importance because they're totally focused on color.
As an aside, I always wondered about the number of tail feathers; the SOP often specifies the shape of the tail but does not address what the number of mail tail feathers should be. So, if a well spread or moderately spread tail is called for, does that mean that a tail with 16 -- as opposed to, say, 12 --main tail feathers should be given preference in that category? Going for more and more main tail feathers in the Leghorns, for instance, might not be such a good thing. Does a hen with 16 main tail feathers have show advantage over one with the standard number? Ken Cooke said privately that it should not be the case, but his wonderful bantam white Leghorn pullets often had excess main tail feathers...and won the favor of many judges. Is that where we should go? I just wonder. Vern Sorensen was not impressed by the excess tail feathers, and he took a dim view of the fad favoring it.
These are just a few musings since we are discussing standard issues with the Welsummers, and some of the points I have raised here might be spelled out in any standard revision in order to avoid future controversies.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3riverschick


Yes, yes, yes!!

I wish all the breeders would show the wings like this! It is so instructive. Esp. when the SOP explains about how such and such feathers should have such and such colors, placed here and there.
Thank you!
Karen

Ok, now if someone can go ahead and instruct us on the required color placement and critique this bird's beautiful wings, I'm learning and waiting for more.

 

[fowlman01]

Welsummers have placed champion large fowl at one APA sanctioned show at least. Both Welsummers and Barnevelders have been class champions several times. Now...what is the issue with the length of the back? The Dutch exhibition cockerel is not a bad bird (in my opinion, that is) and I don't think his wing carriage is all that low. He is not in a natural pose, so his tail is lower than what it probably would be, and that may also impact the way he carries his wings in the picture. There are similar issues with the light brown Leghorn cock birds in photo sessions. And, by the way, I HAVE seen light brown Leghorns placed as class champions when they have absolutely stunning color but terrible type (flat chested, poor back line, major comb fault, low wing carriage, etc.). Has anybody checked out this breed lately, especially the bantams? Apparently, some judges sacrifice anything of type importance because they're totally focused on color.
As an aside, I always wondered about the number of tail feathers; the SOP often specifies the shape of the tail but does not address what the number of mail tail feathers should be. So, if a well spread or moderately spread tail is called for, does that mean that a tail with 16 -- as opposed to, say, 12 --main tail feathers should be given preference in that category? Going for more and more main tail feathers in the Leghorns, for instance, might not be such a good thing. Does a hen with 16 main tail feathers have show advantage over one with the standard number? Ken Cooke said privately that it should not be the case, but his wonderful bantam white Leghorn pullets often had excess main tail feathers...and won the favor of many judges. Is that where we should go? I just wonder. Vern Sorensen was not impressed by the excess tail feathers, and he took a dim view of the fad favoring it.
These are just a few musings since we are discussing standard issues with the Welsummers, and some of the points I have raised here might be spelled out in any standard revision in order to avoid future controversies.

How long ago did you see these wins? What kind of competition? We can only judge how the bird looks in the picture. I have no idea what it looks like in person. Well I think the wings are too low and most judges would agree...probably all judges. They are low in the picture....that's all I can judge. It is a training example

The female tail of the Wellies is not a well spread tail. See page 164 of the 2010 SOP. It is different than most large fowl females. I cna't see how it would benifit from extra tail feathers.

Number of tail feathers. The SOP does not give tail feather counts. The breeders that add all the extra tail feather do it because they can't get wide feathers. You don't need a lot of feathers to give the tail the full look if you have wide tail feathers. Too many tail feathers gives you a tail that looks like a peacock and it appears unbalanced. The only feathers with counts are the wings. 10 primary, 10 secondary and one axial in the center.

RE judging: Judges are people....half of the physicians in this world were in the bottom half of their class too. People have different way of looking at things and if they don't go by the Standard....well that is when you get these screwy placements. The fact is that many judges here in the US have never seen or have seen very few Wellies in the last ten years. There are judges in the south that have probably never seen one. I go to a lot of shows...all over the US and you don't see them....or the Barnevelders for that matter. Maybe they were more common 20 years ago. As I said earlier. There are a lot of judges that have never been tested on a Wellie and if they don't see them or someone doesn't talk them up, why would they spend the time to learn about them. This is a different time now Bjorn.

Walt

 

[Happy Chooks]

Two, I will have to go read my SOP again (believe it or not I don't have it committed to memory!) but my memory - which isn't very good (and why I don't commit things to it) tells me that "shafting" referred to a different color of the main shaft of the feather. This is easily seen on the back where the shaft of the feather is a completely different color that the peppered partridge feathers. On the breast, I will have to go out and look again but I think what you're seeing in the pics is simply a distinction where the barbules are coming off the quill on opposite side making the quill stand out more and the quill is actually the same color as the barbules.

God Bless,

I too was thinking this earlier today. The coloring is the same on the breast, not lighter like on the back feathers.

 

[fowlman01]

Ok, now if someone can go ahead and instruct us on the required color placement and critique this bird's beautiful wings, I'm learning and waiting for more.

Ok, now if someone can go ahead and instruct us on the required color placement and critique this bird's beautiful wings, I'm learning and waiting for more.

Lower web of primary, brown. upper web black.....looks good to me. Secondaries: upper web black with brown peppering, lower web brown.

Coverts. Greenish black forming a wing bar when folded. The parts I can see look right on.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I too was thinking this earlier today. The coloring is the same on the breast, not lighter like on the back feathers.

it would be good to describe that. this is what ther Standard says: Breast of female: Rich chestnut red going well down. The British Standard says the same thing.

It does not say even, but judges will assume that is what it means. There is no mention of different shades. How would a judge, who has never raised these, know that it is not even from that description? if in fact that is the way they should be. When it is not an even color it is described. I am well aware of how judges think when they read these descriptions. I have given many judges licensing tests.

Walt

 

[Tailfeathers]

Walt, I think all of us are ok with critique of our birds... we actually welcome it. I have to say, the Welsummer group has been one of the best that I participate in (nothing against the others) when it comes to open straight forward feedback both positive and negative.

I think all one would have to do is read the Welsummers thread on here or the Facebook page and see that is certainly NOT the case.

 

[Tailfeathers]

If I remember correctly, there were Mr Barber, Mr Grecizmel, Mr Netland, ? Mr Grisham, and one unnamed breeder were the FIVE breeders that was working on the SOP. Some had German birds and some had Dutch birds and from what I do know, that Mr Barber got his hatching eggs from a show in Wales, which the parentage could have been Dutch. Mr Grisham got his from a breeder and well reknown judge, Frank Clark, so Grisham birds are British/UK origin.
So there may have been some discussion when originality of their birds they imported may have been corporated into one melting pot and really not hashing out unforseenable problems like we do today.

Presently I am reading Joseph Batty's book and see if there is any insight of the British Welsummers or any stories about the Dutch Welsummers. H. Snowden was popping up from time to time throughout the book.

You don't remember correctly. I would hope the "President" of a so-called breed club would at least be familiar with how the breed was accepted. I suggest you go back and look at the information I originally provided you on the history of the breed. I don't recall ever hearing or seeing anything about Mr. Grisham being involved with the acceptance of the Barnie or Wellie.

I would also like to remind folks on here that not everyone who breeds and actually DOES show Welsummers is a member of the WCNA. The WCNA may be a fine social club for folks to talk about Welsummers but when the President, VP, and at least one District Direct by their own admission do not breed and/or show their Wellies, I hardly think it's their place to start telling those of us who do what the SOP should say.

 

[aveca]

it could be, but I think crooked keels are a genetic defect and roosts are a good thing to blame when you sell defective birds. I have baby's roosting on all kinds of things and I don't remember a crooked keel here for over 20 years.

w.

I agree with you Walt..Most of these problems are genetic..

Its mostly meat birds and the big heavy breeds ..I have big orpingtons roosting and never a problem , but first 4 months they spend ground sleeping..here is a tad from Virginia ag dept recommendation ..this is not for lighter breeds..

Do not use nests and roosts for meat type chickens. Roosting causes breast blisters, crooked keels,
bruises, and lameness in heavy meat birds. Meat-type birds make poor layers, so slaughter them before
they reach egg production age. If you raise dual purpose birds, put nests in place after slaughtering the​

culls and males. Outside runs are not recommended for meat chickens unless you sell range-reared birds.