CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[cluck-cluck]

Thanks Karin, those were great visuals and comments that I can understand! This "class" has really helped me see the differences between the breeds of chickens that I couldn't see before Thanks everyone once again!

 

[7961]

Those are some beautiful reference pictures. An excellent artist and breeder of rosecomb bantams.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Ok, Movie's over smile. Sussex are on page 103 of the SOP. I am hoping to be allowed to quote small segments. It will make things a bit clearer, tho I can use paraphrase if Walt would rather. The Speckled and Red were approved in 1914. The Light in 1929. Let's go thru the Standard and ask, "Why" about the points of the breed. Once we know "Why", then we will better understand the nuances of the breed. Please feel free to chime in and annotate/clarify the points in this post. there is so much to learn, and points I just can't find the answers too. Feel free to cut and paste just the parts you wish to address. It will make the replies shorter and easier for everyone to read.Thanks!
This is the description of the cock bird.
The skin is white: Why? Because Brits as a people prefer a white skinned fowl, while Americans prefer a yellow skinned fowl.
color of egg is brown. Why? Could be several reasons. At one time the brown egg was thought to be more nutritious. Actually, the several varieties of Sussex can lay an egg from pale tint to a medium rich brown.
A DQ for Sussex is Yellow skin, shanks , or feet. Why? Because it shows foreign blood close up in the pedigree. No Sussex have yellow skin, shanks or feet.
Standard weight: Cock @ 7 lbs. Why? I don't know.
Standard weight for hen: 6 lbs. Why? Well, Broomhead says in his excellent treatise on the Light Sussex variety that the best layers do not usually exceed 6 lbs.
Comb: why is the comb shaped the way it is and why does it follow the curve of the skull the way it does? I don't know, anyone?. The texture of the comb , like that of the wattles and the scales on the shanks is "fine" because these areas are indicative of the texture of the skin on the rest of the body.
I don't know why the beak is stout, rather short and slightly curved. Can anyone help there?
Face: fine skin, soft in texture with a smooth surface. Again goes back to being indicative of the skin on the rest of the body.
Eyes are large, round and prominent. Why? Because this indicative of vigor and a good layer.
Wattles: medium in size; equal in length , well rounded at the lower edges. Why? I don't know and can't find info on this. Please, can anyone share? Why is the shape of the wattles important?
Earlobes: medium size, oval and smooth. Why? I don't know. Can't find this info. Please, can anyone help?
Head: Moderately large, broad, medium length. All hallmarks of a vigorus bird. A good layer.
Neck, medium length, slight arch, full hackle, It is interesting the SOP says the hackle should flow quite a bit over the shoulders. I always considered it should stop "at" the shoulders. I need to revisit that. Anyone share why the neck is the shape it is?
Back: that long back which is both flat and broad for the full length of the back is a major hallmark of the breed. It does slope slightly toward the tail.
Tail: I do not know why the tail is of medium length and well spread. Can anyone help? I have read that the higher the tail, the shorter the back may be. Anyone on that? This may be the reason for the tail at no higher than 45 degrees?
Wings: Can anyone help with why the wings are rather long, carried close to the body without drooping? Why is it important the wing not droop?
Breast: Another major hallmark of the breed. Broad, deep and rounding nicely into the body. Broomhead counsels that instead of going for a just super long keel, one should consider more length of back to go with a proper keel.
Here is Outram's description of proper breed type in the Sussex fowl from his 1925 book (male first, then female)," Imagine a big, bold bird, very close feathered, one that is square in the shoulder broad and long in the back, with tail carried at a neat angle of about 45 degrees, the body being very deep and showing plenty of "heart room". The breast bone should be long and the whole body of the bird well balanced, being mounted on moderately long and strong white legs and feet, the latter having four well-shaped and well spread toes. This fairly describes the general outline of the Sussex cock bird.
In the hen we should see the same bold outline, the same typical tight-feathered bird on a smaller scale, but with all the striking points of the Sussex as are seen in the male bird with this addition, the back of the female is absolutely horizontal from the base of the neck to the tip of the tail. Both sexes must be well balanced in body , particularly the female, and with this you have the typical Sussex hen." end quote.
Long, deep, broad Body. All three attributes having to do with egg laying and meat production.
Note the Fluff is moderately full. Yet it fits closely to the body. This is one fault of the Aussie birds, in that they tend to be more loosely feathered. .What is close-feathered and why do we care? Broomhead defines close feathering in the Sussex as feathers which do not displace in any brief puff of wind which blows against the lay of the feathers. Sussex should not remind one of an Orpington in any way. Broomhead counsels the difference between the thigh feathering on Orpington and Sussex. In Orpington, the thigh is not distinct in outline because of the feathering. In Sussex, one should be able to see the defined thigh because of the close feathering..
Legs and Toes set well apart , straight when viewed from the front. The allows the bird to carry its weight more easily.
Our SOP says Thighs stout and medium length. Shanks, medium length and rather stout. "medium length" as regards to what? Broomhead addressed this question in his 9 page treatise
( http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5 ). The texture of the scales on the shanks is indicative of the texture of the skin on the rest of the bird. Sussex should have skin of fine texture. Why? Because fine textured skin stretches more easily when the organs expand when egg laying season starts. In a bird with coarse textured skin, this stretchability of skin languishes and it negatively affects the birds egg production. Coarse textured skin tends to build up a layer of fat underneath. This fat does not stretch and so the egg production of the bird is negatively affected.
The color of the shanks and tops of the feet is indicative of the color of the beak. The color on the bottom of the feet is indicative of the color of the skin on the body of the bird. That is why one will see a yellow-skinned , dark feathered bird with dark shanks and yellow soles on the bottoms of the feet. ( Example: The Black Java).
All the above describes the Sussex cock bird. The female is basically the same with a few minor differences which Outram outlines above. Her features are more feminine. Per our SOP, her tail at 35 degrees and her back slightly sloping to the tail; wattles are small instead of medium like the cocks; .
Note the head description on both sexes is the same. If one were culling for egg production by head points, this is a head which has been selected for in a bird which not only has good egg production but is also a meat bird. I do not know if one selects head points for a meat bird. If not, then perhaps selecting for egg production is all that is needed, since head selection for meat production is a moot point? Anyone want to chime in on this?
Best,
Karen

 

[Gallusfarm]

Berry my only pullet not broody humph

We have discussed the problem that this bird has previously in this thread, as just about every breed shown can exhibit this. What is it?

 

[galanie]

This bird has a very pinched tail. Indicative of not having ample room back there for laying.

A hands on examination of the hips and pubic bones will likely confirm it.

 

[catdaddyfro]

This bird has a very pinched tail. Indicative of not having ample room back there for laying.

A hands on examination of the hips and pubic bones will likely confirm it.

99.9% of all production types/layers have the "pinched tail" it is more of a trait that is instilled from lack of culling(blind eyes) for fuller tails due to looking and selecting the best layers out of a group of chickens, like the factory/hatchery types which keeps them in business. The pinched tail is not an indication of not really having ample room for laying (nothing lays more eggs than pinched tail Leghorn hybrids/crosses and the pro reds/sexlinks) but more like not enough capacity/room for a (very over productive) egg producing factory and too having enough room for all the innards/vitals for a normally active/ functioning system, and long life span of the bird all going on at once. TOO CROWDED in there LOL

Jeff

 

[thedragonlady]

Karen, as you probably know, I breed Buff Orps but I spent a few years in England ,and I can help you out a bit on the British thinking on some of these points...

Ok, Movie's over smile. Sussex are on page 103 of the SOP. I am hoping to be allowed to quote small segments. It will make things a bit clearer, tho I can use paraphrase if Walt would rather. The Speckled and Red were approved in 1914. The Light in 1929. Let's go thru the Standard and ask, "Why" about the points of the breed. Once we know "Why", then we will better understand the nuances of the breed. Please feel free to chime in and annotate/clarify the points in this post. there is so much to learn, and points I just can't find the answers too. Feel free to cut and paste just the parts you wish to address. It will make the replies shorter and easier for everyone to read.Thanks!
This is the description of the cock bird.
The skin is white: Why? Because Brits as a people prefer a white skinned fowl, while Americans prefer a yellow skinned fowl.
color of egg is brown. Why? Could be several reasons. At one time the brown egg was thought to be more nutritious. Actually, the several varieties of Sussex can lay an egg from pale tint to a medium rich brown.
A DQ for Sussex is Yellow skin, shanks , or feet. Why? Because it shows foreign blood close up in the pedigree. No Sussex have yellow skin, shanks or feet.
Standard weight: Cock @ 7 lbs. Why? I don't know.
Standard weight for hen: 6 lbs. Why? Well, Broomhead says in his excellent treatise on the Light Sussex variety that the best layers do not usually exceed 6 lbs.
Comb: why is the comb shaped the way it is and why does it follow the curve of the skull the way it does? I don't know, anyone?. The texture of the comb , like that of the wattles and the scales on the shanks is "fine" because these areas are indicative of the texture of the skin on the rest of the body.

The comb is a weak vulnerable point in a dual purpose bird.The British climate is cold and very frosty during winter. Many times we brought horses in that were covered in hoare frost and ice.A comb that follows the line of the skull is simply not as likely to freeze. Small , rounded combs on females are not as likely to be damaged in breeding also.
I don't know why the beak is stout, rather short and slightly curved. Can anyone help there?

A short curved beak goes with the rounded skull. Most crow headed birds have long, narrow beaks.
Face: fine skin, soft in texture with a smooth surface. Again goes back to being indicative of the skin on the rest of the body.
Eyes are large, round and prominent. Why? Because this indicative of vigor and a good layer.
Wattles: medium in size; equal in length , well rounded at the lower edges. Why? I don't know and can't find info on this. Please, can anyone share? Why is the shape of the wattles important?

Rounded wattles of medium size will shed water. Large, cupped wattles will hold water, and freeze.
Earlobes: medium size, oval and smooth. Why? I don't know. Can't find this info. Please, can anyone help?
Same idea as for the wattles. Any area not covered by feathers is vulnerable to frost bite.
Head: Moderately large, broad, medium length. All hallmarks of a vigorus bird. A good layer.
Neck, medium length, slight arch, full hackle, It is interesting the SOP says the hackle should flow quite a bit over the shoulders. I always considered it should stop "at" the shoulders. I need to revisit that. Anyone share why the neck is the shape it is?
A slightly arched neck provides balance for the body,like a cat's tail.
Back: that long back which is both flat and broad for the full length of the back is a major hallmark of the breed. It does slope slightly toward the tail.
Tail: I do not know why the tail is of medium length and well spread. Can anyone help? I have read that the higher the tail, the shorter the back may be. Anyone on that? This may be the reason for the tail at no higher than 45 degrees?
Yup, the higher the tail, generally the shorter the back, and body.Pinched tails most often go with narrow hips.
Wings: Can anyone help with why the wings are rather long, carried close to the body without drooping? Why is it important the wing not droop?
Wings are controlled by the Pectoral muscles . Strong pecs make for good, wide breasts on birds.
Breast: Another major hallmark of the breed. Broad, deep and rounding nicely into the body. Broomhead counsels that instead of going for a just super long keel, one should consider more length of back to go with a proper keel.
Here is Outram's description of proper breed type in the Sussex fowl from his 1925 book (male first, then female)," Imagine a big, bold bird, very close feathered, one that is square in the shoulder broad and long in the back, with tail carried at a neat angle of about 45 degrees, the body being very deep and showing plenty of "heart room". The breast bone should be long and the whole body of the bird well balanced, being mounted on moderately long and strong white legs and feet, the latter having four well-shaped and well spread toes. This fairly describes the general outline of the Sussex cock bird.
In the hen we should see the same bold outline, the same typical tight-feathered bird on a smaller scale, but with all the striking points of the Sussex as are seen in the male bird with this addition, the back of the female is absolutely horizontal from the base of the neck to the tip of the tail. Both sexes must be well balanced in body , particularly the female, and with this you have the typical Sussex hen." end quote.
Long, deep, broad Body. All three attributes having to do with egg laying and meat production.
Note the Fluff is moderately full. Yet it fits closely to the body. This is one fault of the Aussie birds, in that they tend to be more loosely feathered. .What is close-feathered and why do we care? Broomhead defines close feathering in the Sussex as feathers which do not displace in any brief puff of wind which blows against the lay of the feathers. Sussex should not remind one of an Orpington in any way. Broomhead counsels the difference between the thigh feathering on Orpington and Sussex. In Orpington, the thigh is not distinct in outline because of the feathering. In Sussex, one should be able to see the defined thigh because of the close feathering..

Wide, close feathering is good waterproofing.Moderately full dense fluff will stay dry, and keep a hen and her chicks warm. Long , loose fluff gets wet in a hurry.We are seeing this problem in a lot of the English imported Orps now. Some of the winning birds have fluff that trails on the ground, and would become a sodden mess out ranging.
Legs and Toes set well apart , straight when viewed from the front. The allows the bird to carry its weight more easily.
Our SOP says Thighs stout and medium length. Shanks, medium length and rather stout. "medium length" as regards to what? Broomhead addressed this question in his 9 page treatise
( http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5 ). The texture of the scales on the shanks is indicative of the texture of the skin on the rest of the bird. Sussex should have skin of fine texture. Why? Because fine textured skin stretches more easily when the organs expand when egg laying season starts. In a bird with coarse textured skin, this stretchability of skin languishes and it negatively affects the birds egg production. Coarse textured skin tends to build up a layer of fat underneath. This fat does not stretch and so the egg production of the bird is negatively affected.
The color of the shanks and tops of the feet is indicative of the color of the beak. The color on the bottom of the feet is indicative of the color of the skin on the body of the bird. That is why one will see a yellow-skinned , dark feathered bird with dark shanks and yellow soles on the bottoms of the feet. ( Example: The Black Java).
All the above describes the Sussex cock bird. The female is basically the same with a few minor differences which Outram outlines above. Her features are more feminine. Per our SOP, her tail at 35 degrees and her back slightly sloping to the tail; wattles are small instead of medium like the cocks; .
Note the head description on both sexes is the same. If one were culling for egg production by head points, this is a head which has been selected for in a bird which not only has good egg production but is also a meat bird. I do not know if one selects head points for a meat bird. If not, then perhaps selecting for egg production is all that is needed, since head selection for meat production is a moot point? Anyone want to chime in on this?

A strong head is generally indicative of the strength of ANY animal.Crow headed birds tend to be weak in all other points.
Best,
Karen

 

[1muttsfan]

Thank you 3riverschicks and Dragonlady for well-written and easily understood explanations. I will take another look at the pics posted. Do you experts have any comments on some of the birds? Anything that particularly strikes you (good or bad)?

 

[galanie]

99.9% of all production types/layers have the "pinched tail" it is more of a trait that is instilled from lack of culling(blind eyes) for fuller tails due to looking and selecting the best layers out of a group of chickens, like the factory/hatchery types which keeps them in business. The pinched tail is not an indication of not really having ample room for laying (nothing lays more eggs than pinched tail Leghorn hybrids/crosses and the pro reds/sexlinks) but more like not enough capacity/room for a (very over productive) egg producing factory and too having enough room for all the innards/vitals for a normally active/ functioning system, and long life span of the bird all going on at once. TOO CROWDED in there LOL

Jeff

Well that's what I meant but I tend to be too brief. Yes, I want my layers to have ample room to live a long life and lay, Not lay 350 eggs a year then die. One thing I have noticed since finally getting a few quality pullets though: The "laying" birds squawk and carry on about laying an egg, while the ones with ample space there just quietly lay and go on about their business. Which indicates to me that the "laying song" as they so charmingly call it really is a call of pain. Besides, it sounds nearly identical to the danger call.

You have many more years than I do and I appreciate the correction.

Anyhow I still say the fault is a pinched tail. hehe.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Well that's what I meant but I tend to be too brief. Yes, I want my layers to have ample room to live a long life and lay, Not lay 350 eggs a year then die. One thing I have noticed since finally getting a few quality pullets though: The "laying" birds squawk and carry on about laying an egg, while the ones with ample space there just quietly lay and go on about their business. Which indicates to me that the "laying song" as they so charmingly call it really is a call of pain. Besides, it sounds nearly identical to the danger call.

You have many more years than I do and I appreciate the correction.

Anyhow I still say the fault is a pinched tail. hehe.

Yes I know, its called cut and dry round these parts LOL we know you get it to the point Galanie.

Not so much as correcting you but just additional info. is what I'd call it.

Yep on the pinched tail

hey when you get to Colmsneil you would only be about 50 or so miles straight thru the pines as a crow flies from my little neck of the woods. There used to be a hawg dawg(Baying and catch) dog trainer out in that area I wonder if it still is in operation?

Jeff

PS on the egg laying song/squawking and carrying on like the world is at end. LOL I have read this is trait brought forth into the chickens doings as it goes back to the wild fowl and such they would go off and lay there egg(s) and in the meantime the rest of the flock would meander off out of sight and hearing distance so when the hen would lay the egg and send out the (call) the cockbird of the flock is supposed to answer this and alert her as to where/which way to head towards to catch back up to the flock? sounds good to me, makes sense too, well with the exception of telling the fox or the snake where she and the eggs are located too?