Delawares from kathyinmo

[LeslieDJoyce]

I am in that camp also . However , less numbers means less chance of finding that "Superman" or hen because the odds go down.  But we could get lotto lucky I guess.
My take is that this is a hobby and when it becomes work I don't enjoy I'm going fishing instead.
But I'm still enjoying keeping it small. 

Also, with the Delawared they change so much how would you know which ones to cull before they are fairly mature?

 

[Zanna]

Also, with the Delawared they change so much how would you know which ones to cull before they are fairly mature?

I believe we are at the point with these birds that we can cull early for Columbian markings, brown feathers, crooked keel. Not much else though.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'm a bit confused about the Columbian marking, so I have to ask.

I think I'm hearing conflicting things. On the one hand it is clearly incorrect, and people say not to breed birds that show it. On the other hand, I think I've read people have chosen hens with Columbian marking as breeders, and have gotten chicks with barred coloring from those birds.

I could add "wry tail" to the list of possible culls. I saw one chick at the "sprouting tail feathers" stage with what looked like wry tail and thought I'd wait. I now have one pullet with what looks like wry tail. It points at 11 o'clock most of the time, but she can twitch it upright. So that's another thing that can manifest early.

The brown feathers seem to be appearing at different ages, but once they're present it's game over except for eggs or meat.

At what stage is a bird with a crooked keel possible to detect?

I see no other obvious "early" malformations ... no funky beaks or feet ... no missing parts. No limps at hatch.

I've always wondered about the term "obvious cull," and figured I'd know it when I see it, which I haven't yet.

 

[Zanna]

I'm a bit confused about the Columbian marking, so I have to ask.

I think I'm hearing conflicting things. On the one hand it is clearly incorrect, and people say not to breed birds that show it. On the other hand, I think I've read people have chosen hens with Columbian marking as breeders, and have gotten chicks with barred coloring from those birds.

I could add "wry tail" to the list of possible culls. I saw one chick at the "sprouting tail feathers" stage with what looked like wry tail and thought I'd wait. I now have one pullet with what looks like wry tail. It points at 11 o'clock most of the time, but she can twitch it upright. So that's another thing that can manifest early.

The brown feathers seem to be appearing at different ages, but once they're present it's game over except for eggs or meat.

At what stage is a bird with a crooked keel possible to detect?

I see no other obvious "early" malformations ... no funky beaks or feet ... no missing parts. No limps at hatch.

I've always wondered about the term "obvious cull," and figured I'd know it when I see it, which I haven't yet.

Two of my F-4 hens that I used (and will probably use again) had Columbian markings and I did not hatch any this year that did not have the correct barring, most have too much though. If I had more choices, I would not have used those hens but I only had the four I deemed breedworthy and the two I sold to you. My guess is the Cocks used helped to get the correct barring or maybe by F'5's of a recreated line it just happens, I don't know. My uncle in law made a very good living for 25 years breeding champion game cocks. He said by F-5's you should be seeing apples for apples in type and colour if you have made the correct breeding choices. There is the clincher......... And, maybe not so in a recreated line.

Yes, obvious culls are obvious, many for the malformations you listed. I think a crooked keel can be felt early on, I have only ever had two birds in all the years with this fault. One was a Welsummer Cockeral who was culled as he was a "attack the hand that feeds you" personality and I did not notice the keel till we butchered him. The other was only a month old when I noticed it. Kept him till four months to be sure and to be a good size for eating and it was still crooked.

I also feel we should be culling for the slower maturers, at what age to make that call I am not sure. Does anyone else have some input on this?

Still trying to figure out this wing thing. It maybe something we can cull for early or maybe it is just slow development of the feathers in some of the birds and will resolve itself in time/age with some of the birds. Not sure how long to give them.

 

[ronott1]

Nooooo My delawere roo is acting sick. He was wormed over a month ago and ivermectin was also put on. He molted terrible but was getting back his feathers nicely. Now he is mooping about. No sneezing or resp. No pox on him just not active at all right ,He even ignored the young buff orp who squatted for him. Also a barred hen is acting the same way. No symptoms but that. Oh I did see the hen do the snake thing with her neck once. I have not introduced new hens and they do not go out of their enclosure. Its a big fenced area with a cover of wire. What is going on?

Worming and ivermectin was repeated after a week to 10 days?

Mites are vicious and hard to get rid of.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Two of my F-4 hens that I used (and will probably use again) had Columbian markings and I did not hatch any this year that did not have the correct barring, most have too much though. If I had more choices, I would not have used those hens but I only had the four I deemed breedworthy and the two I sold to you. My guess is the Cocks used helped to get the correct barring or maybe by F'5's of a recreated line it just happens, I don't know. My uncle in law made a very good living for 25 years breeding champion game cocks. He said by F-5's you should be seeing apples for apples in type and colour if you have made the correct breeding choices. There is the clincher......... And, maybe not so in a recreated line.

Yes, obvious culls are obvious, many for the malformations you listed. I think a crooked keel can be felt early on, I have only ever had two birds in all the years with this fault. One was a Welsummer Cockeral who was culled as he was a "attack the hand that feeds you" personality and I did not notice the keel till we butchered him. The other was only a month old when I noticed it. Kept him till four months to be sure and to be a good size for eating and it was still crooked.

I also feel we should be culling for the slower maturers, at what age to make that call I am not sure. Does anyone else have some input on this?

Still trying to figure out this wing thing. It maybe something we can cull for early or maybe it is just slow development of the feathers in some of the birds and will resolve itself in time/age with some of the birds. Not sure how long to give them.

I'm feeling slightly more optimistic this morning.

If the three F4s I started with were good enough to breed, then anything that's even a slight improvement will be worth breeding. As long as I have anything that is an improvement, and I honestly have zero clue how to determine what is an improvement. I only took two crummy photos of the F4s when they were on their way here, which was last October ... I have more photos from December when the first pullet started to lay. I'll use those photos for comparison purposes, and be extra vigilant about "dirty" looking feathers. But I'm still super confused about how to compare the birds.

So between the two of us (Zanna and me) if we do decide to send my Mr. F4 back to you, we'll have to decide if I use one of your F4 cocks as the mate for my F5 pullets, or if I'll breed my F5 pullets to one of my F5 cockerels. I'm perfectly happy putting "our" best male with "our" best females for next season, no matter which one of us starts out with which birds or where the actual breeding/hatching takes place. And from what I gather, it doesn't really matter if they are F4s or F5s at this stage because they are all still very closely related. I'm perfectly okay with you doing the breeding and hatching of the best birds. I don't cull as hard or as soon as you do, but I also don't hatch as many chicks or have as much experience assessing birds.

If I end up with just one pen of breeders here that's fine ... it would mean I wouldn't have to divide my breeding coop and could run things next year exactly like we ran them this year. Another year of practice. So I do want something potentially useful to work with.

About breeding for more precocious birds. One of my ideas for this year was to breed whichever pullet was the first to lay. Now I'm not so sure that's what I'll do. I did nothing to mark or chicks so I'd know which hatch they were from, so can only guess at their relative ages. But this is for sure something I'll be working on eventually if I'm able to continue with this line.

The wings on the cockerels is very tricky as it seems to manifest just when it would be ever so nice to send some the cockerels off to pre-freezer camp, and then there is a wait of several weeks to assess the wings. These cockerels seem to go through a very awkward stage. The silver lining of that wait seems to be that early brassiness also develops in that wait time ... ?

I haven't noticed any wing issues on my females here. We'll have to look at that, too.

 

[Zanna]

So between the two of us (Zanna and me) if we do decide to send my Mr. F4 back to you, we'll have to decide if I use one of your F4 cocks as the mate for my F5 pullets, or if I'll breed my F5 pullets to one of my F5 cockerels.

You could do both if you have the time/space and good records to know who is from who. If we go with this plan, I would breed your F4 Cock to my original hens and also breed my best F5 cockeral back to the original hens. I will probably shoot for Feb/Mar. before I start collecting any eggs for hatching so we have a couple of months to still watch our youngsters grow out and make the best decisions we can

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

You could do both if you have the time/space and good records to know who is from who.  If we go with this plan, I would breed your F4 Cock to my original hens and also breed my best F5 cockeral back to the original hens.  I will probably shoot for Feb/Mar. before I start collecting any eggs for hatching so we have a couple of months to still watch our youngsters grow out and make the best decisions we can

I'm really warming to the idea of having just one pen of females for breeding next season. Then I could use one male earlier in the season ... and another male later in the season if I'm feeling all energetic.

Without too much headache I can hatch & grow out chicks in two different coops/pastures to keep them well separated and sorted. That leaves me with another coop/pasture for growing out cockerels.

I'm liking this plan.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I just explained The Plan to Dad. He likes it because it means he doesn't have to help me divide the breeding coop/pasture into two parts.

 

[gjensen]

Two of my F-4 hens that I used (and will probably use again) had Columbian markings and I did not hatch any this year that did not have the correct barring, most have too much though. If I had more choices, I would not have used those hens but I only had the four I deemed breedworthy and the two I sold to you. My guess is the Cocks used helped to get the correct barring or maybe by F'5's of a recreated line it just happens, I don't know. My uncle in law made a very good living for 25 years breeding champion game cocks. He said by F-5's you should be seeing apples for apples in type and colour if you have made the correct breeding choices. There is the clincher......... And, maybe not so in a recreated line.

Yes, obvious culls are obvious, many for the malformations you listed. I think a crooked keel can be felt early on, I have only ever had two birds in all the years with this fault. One was a Welsummer Cockeral who was culled as he was a "attack the hand that feeds you" personality and I did not notice the keel till we butchered him. The other was only a month old when I noticed it. Kept him till four months to be sure and to be a good size for eating and it was still crooked.

I also feel we should be culling for the slower maturers, at what age to make that call I am not sure. Does anyone else have some input on this?

Still trying to figure out this wing thing. It maybe something we can cull for early or maybe it is just slow development of the feathers in some of the birds and will resolve itself in time/age with some of the birds. Not sure how long to give them.

Identifying @ what age they molt into their adult plumage is a good period of time to consider. That is the peak of their growth curve, and they put a lot of protein and energy into that molt. That is at least a good time to mark the birds that are fleshing out earlier. Then identifying who starts crowing first etc. is a clue. Same with POL. Sexual maturity and early weights is two different things.Once an average is established, then it is a matter of setting a standard and raising the bar periodically. I say periodically because results will naturally fluctuate. Different years will have different feed mixes, weather, unseen pressures etc. It is probably best to select for these characteristics by comparing them within the same batch.

There are different ages that people go with, but I believe in going with the growth curve. That varies from strain to strain, and the peak is more obvious in some than others. If it was charted on a graph, it would be easier to illustrate. Some growth curves are rather flat.That is why I point out the molt. From there on out the rate the bird is growing declines.

I have been able to consistently make progress with all of my project flocks. One thing that Standard bred birds have taught me is that progress can be slower. There is less variability within a flock, and the points of emphasis are more numerous. How fast measurable progress is made depends on variability, how many we are willing to hatch, and what compromises we are willing to consider.

This is no rule. There are no rules. This is how I have come to see it. The important part is to try to be consistent.

I have long been interested in and selected for the merits of utility. It has spanned a couple decades. Since I have become interested in breeding to the Standard, I have been unable to separate the two.