Delawares from kathyinmo

[LeslieDJoyce]

Mr. Zooman, that was nicely concise and highlights the benefits of line breeding way better than my rambling. I have a question ... if I mate a male F4 to female F5s, what "F" are their offspring? The way lots of people manage their poultry linebbreeding is to cross generations.

What I was getting at with the use of the word "pedigree" in my layman's term blather was what I remember from thoroughbred horse registrations where you had long family histories for registered animals. And where it was a "thoroughbred" if the papers said it was, no matter what the horse looked like. Quite different from how poultry breeds work.

 

[caychris]

Mr. Zooman, that was nicely concise and highlights the benefits of line breeding way better than my rambling. I have a question ... if I mate a male F4 to female F5s, what "F" are their offspring? The way lots of people manage their poultry linebbreeding is to cross generations.

What I was getting at with the use of the word "pedigree" in my layman's term blather was what I remember from thoroughbred horse registrations where you had long family histories for registered animals. And where it was a "thoroughbred" if the papers said it was, no matter what the horse looked like. Quite different from how poultry breeds work.

Yeah thats the same question I have.

Personally I would designate them as either a minus or a plus sign. Not sure which but trying to designate that they have more genetic variation or less genetic specialization

The aim of line breeding is to work within a narrow band of genetics of desired traits and produce a uniformity.
Each successive generation of Fn x Fn parings will result in increased specialization (ie narrower band of genetic traits)
However Fn x F(n+/-) slows the rate allowing you to spot and correct defects.

I would think it would be good to allow for some of each to be produced each season and treat

So an example of this would be something like this and considering malesxover females

F4 and F5 parent stock

F4xF4 = F5
F4xF5 = F5+
F5xF5 = F6
F5xF4 = F6-

You could add + or - for the breadth of difference between generations

Just how I think Im going to do it with a Line designation for the P1 birds.

 

[finnfur]

When I asked the F stage question I was just being amusing .

I think the F number refers to the stage of that breeding program.

You could have a F3 and F7 - this I think would result in a F8 stage.

Kathy may have been breeding some 2's to F3s- or 3 to 3s to get our F4s.

Thats the way I understand it - but I've been wrong before -

 

[finnfur]

Hmmmm. I'm rambling.

No your not - keep up the good work.

 

[xoxocammyxoxo]

When I asked the F stage question I was just being amusing .

I think the F number refers to the stage of that breeding program.

You could have a F3 and F7 - this I think would result in a F8 stage.

Kathy may have been breeding some 2's to F3s- or 3 to 3s to get our F4s.

Thats the way I understand it - but I've been wrong before -

That is the idea. Each stage of the process. You could breed F1s to F5s and still end up with F6s. What I've never understood was the F part... what exactly does F stand for?

 

[caychris]

That is the idea. Each stage of the process. You could breed F1s to F5s and still end up with F6s. What I've never understood was the F part... what exactly does F stand for?

read Zoomans post a few back it will tell you

 

[Mr King]

For purposes of building enthusiasm for the Delaware breed, I'm encouraging people to get Delawares, any Delawares, and breed them with the Standard in mind. However, for the sake of this line, I hope more breeders commit to working to keep the line "clean" as they work to improve it and see where it goes.

I keep reading that if you cross in different lines, or even different breeds as the hatcheries likely do, then you lose stability in the way the chicks turn out. In other words you lose predictability in the result, and uniformity in the line -- you have "mutts" instead of Delawares (if by "Delaware" mean a bird that was bred from Delaware parents and is able to produce Delaware offspring, and those 3 generations of Delawares conform to the Standard for the breed). The goal is increasing stability, uniformity, and predictability ... to a point where they all look the same, and ideally that "same" would be something close to the actual Standard for the breed. I've read that takes years and years of careful inbreeding and culling to reach predictability, stability, uniformity, and quality.

All this is made slightly more complicated for Delawares where part of the standard is the utility of the breed. Delawares should be good meat birds (good-sized, tasty, meaty, not too slow to mature and even older birds should be tender and delicious) and the females should be good layers (large eggs, eggs through the winter). 

What seems to be happening with the hatchery crosses (of any breed, not just Delawares) is we do get one generation of properly colored birds (ish) but with poor type, and those birds will produce less-nice-looking and more-random chicks when bred to each other. Therefore, getting stability into hatchery-bred Delawares might not be possible ... I hope it is! ... yet even if it is the type would likely not be correct for a Delaware even if the feather colors remain somewhat correct. That was the roadblock people hit (lines of Delawares that are frustratingly resistant to improvements in type, so people quickly lose enthusiasm) with the breed that has encouraged a couple of breeders to start over as Kathy did. 

What makes Kathy's birds so good, I think, is that she started with really great parent stock. She made some very-well informed choices about where to source those birds, from very well preserved lines. With the hope that she'd end up with similar results to the original creator of the breed. 

Hmmmm. I'm rambling.

I keep reading that "inbreeding" of chickens is less of a concern than I had thought. There is a lot of stuff going on in chicken genetics -- all from the original source material -- so if breeding isn't handled properly just about anything could result. Randomness. Instability. Birds that quickly move away from the Standard for their breed. The way I've had it explained to me, it would take about 16 years before I'll need to worry about bringing in "fresh" blood to this line ... to prevent the line from collapsing due to lack of genetic diversity. That's practically a whole "career" of breeding, especially starting at my age, so I'm not going to worry about that. Instead, I'm going to worry about keeping other breeds/lines out of my flock. And hope there are other breeders doing the same.

I don't know how many people Kathy sent boxes of F4s to, but I would hope there are still more than a handful of us working on this line without crossing other things into it. We could undo her amazing work if we aren't careful. That said, it is still a somewhat unproven line, and problems might pop up that mean the project hits an early dead end. And if we could get more people devoted to keeping this line "clean," then we'd have more sources for "fresh" blood that is potentially more predictable when we need it. 

Unfortunately, sharing this line around is difficult as we need to raise the chicks to maturity (and beyond!) to make good breeding choices, there is a limit to the number of chicks we can raise, even fewer that turn out breedworthy, and many of us aren't able to ship chicks as we aren't health-certified to do so legally, and shipping adult birds is spendy and awkward. I think we'll have little geographical pockets of "Kathy's line" breeders, at least for a while. And that's a shame, but it is what it is. 

So, I really hope that people who do get "Kathy's Line" birds can keep them "pure."

[COLOR=0000FF]That said, if I had unlimited facilities and money and labor I'd be curious to cross in some of the hatchery birds, completely on the side, to see if certain improvements could be made without losing what is already so great about this line or making Mutt Soup out of it. Because I'm curious! And not always patient ...  ... and also a little bit  [/COLOR] [COLOR=0000FF] [/COLOR]

As it is, here we can really only hope do a "good job" with one line of one breed, so that's our personal limit. We are only willing to hatch as many chicks as we can raise to maturity to use, either as table birds or as layers, so that's another limiting factor for us. We really need to get our act together when it comes to processing birds. 

Good Morning.! Interesting comment, ok to begin with there is many people who encourage others to keep this breed but no one stand up and say here I can sell you a good parent stock for you to keep breeding, and it is hard to get this Delawares I was hoping to get some from Kathyinmo since seems to be the best around but no one sells, so 8 acres have some that seems to be good quality but they're sold out

hmm, so now what?.

About crossing I have good experience not with delaware but with so many other breeds and let me tell you what I had experiance hopefully this help some of you. Unfortunately you do need space ttime, spend some money , etc , this is to make some risks and do other cross besides with what you got for example you have your Kathyinmo Delaware and keep breeding between them you will only be able to do it for some years and then get a different line but it's hard to find it and yes maybe you will have to start all over Because it's not the desire line or this new mess up your hard work, so better thing to do is experiment with some different lines but yes keep your Kathyinmo delaware pure , try to get the best you can two or one different lines of Delaware and cross them with your katy dels and at the same time keep breeding your katy pures, see the results with the new blood see if it's worth it to improve or not. Remember you might go one little step back but it's worth it because you will need fresh lines in the future. We had some smaller size birds with time of inbreeding. We did all kinds of inbreeding and the best results are between half brother half sister never cross them between brother/sister, even if you get good results (which i don't think so) you will lose future crosses since blood is to cconcentrated.
About selling mature fowl it's not bad, might be expensive but worth it for this type of birds for example a good 2 or 3 month old trio will be good reasonable shipping price. I big cockerel for chicken soup I Don't think so"

..
Sorry if i mispell or repeated words to much but my english is not so good

 

[finnfur]

Good Morning.! Interesting comment, ok to begin with there is many people who encourage others to keep this breed but no one stand up and say here I can sell you a good parent stock for you to keep breeding, and it is hard to get this Delawares I was hoping to get some from Kathyinmo since seems to be the best around but no one sells, so 8 acres have some that seems to be good quality but they're sold out

hmm, so now what?.

About crossing I have good experience not with delaware but with so many other breeds and let me tell you what I had experiance hopefully this help some of you. Unfortunately you do need space ttime, spend some money , etc , this is to make some risks and do other cross besides with what you got for example you have your Kathyinmo Delaware and keep breeding between them you will only be able to do it for some years and then get a different line but it's hard to find it and yes maybe you will have to start all over Because it's not the desire line or this new mess up your hard work, so better thing to do is experiment with some different lines but yes keep your Kathyinmo delaware pure , try to get the best you can two or one different lines of Delaware and cross them with your katy dels and at the same time keep breeding your katy pures, see the results with the new blood see if it's worth it to improve or not. Remember you might go one little step back but it's worth it because you will need fresh lines in the future. We had some smaller size birds with time of inbreeding. We did all kinds of inbreeding and the best results are between half brother half sister never cross them between brother/sister, even if you get good results (which i don't think so) you will lose future crosses since blood is to cconcentrated.
About selling mature fowl it's not bad, might be expensive but worth it for this type of birds for example a good 2 or 3 month old trio will be good reasonable shipping price. I big cockerel for chicken soup I Don't think so"

..
Sorry if i mispell or repeated words to much but my english is not so good

Good post.
Keep in mind that this line is still in stage of development even though they have great heritage .
A lot of these are small breeders and have not NPIP certified and that makes it difficult to sell chicks or eggs interstate
unless the buyer picks them up.
Micheal Newman [byc name] has some of this line and his own - he is in the panhandle of FL
He may be close enough to drive - just a thought
Good luck

 

[Mr King]

Thank you, that was just an example since I've never had a Delaware in my hands, I just go with what you guys post. And like I said before (somewhere not sure if this thread lol.) I'm new in this egg laying, dual purpose, meat chicken,show chicken World

. But I can share my experience with you guys and read and learn from your experience. I'm getting interested on delaware I think I'm going to be patient and wait to get some decent Delaware line and start improving it , but to do that i will need your help guys since I don't know what is the desire delaware or the goal from this Delaware chicken.

 

[finnfur]

Thank you, that was just an example since I've never had a Delaware in my hands, I just go with what you guys post. And like I said before (somewhere not sure if this thread lol.) I'm new in this egg laying, dual purpose, meat chicken,show chicken World

. But I can share my experience with you guys and read and learn from your experience. I'm getting interested on delaware I think I'm going to be patient and wait to get some decent Delaware line and start improving it , but to do that i will need your help guys since I don't know what is the desire delaware or the goal from this Delaware chicken.

There is another thread "Breeding Delawares to the standard of perfection"
You might want to view that thread also.
Find a APA book SOP - that has all the details- not how you get there but what you are looking for.
Or you can ask Leslie she knows all that stuff by heart