Developing My Own Breed Of Large Gamefowl For Free Range Survival (Junglefowl x Liege)

[genesis1verse1]

No, Marek’s took Azog late fall. Recall that about a year ago Azog had a limp for several weeks, then it went away. In hindsight, the Marek’s was clearly manifesting itself then. I made nearly 100 chicks off of Azog and they too all wiped out in the winter.

Indo also was taken by the Marek’s this morning. This time of year Florida runs hot and cold and I’ve found that wild temperature fluctuations is nearly always what triggers Marek’s paralysis. Indo was drunk-walking this morning where we had a cold snap after a warm weekend. I didn’t hesitate I culled him on the spot. Yesterday he looked a bit pale in the face and droopy.

When he was a half-grown chick turned out for the first time he got stumbly and weak but after 2 weeks it passed. Like Azog, it is clear now that was Marek’s manifesting. Indo just kept it at bay for a long time. He was around 3 years old.

No chicken left on my farm has ever been stumbly. However, Lanky is the one chicken left I can think of that ever showed anything I’m suspicious of. When he’s on free range he has a tendency to get a bit thin. More than what I think he ought. It seems like the healthiest chickens I have maintain full body weight even when on free range. Even one of my big Liege hens always was solid to the touch free ranging before she got caught by a predator year before last.

So I *might* cull Lanky as a preventative measure. No reason to keep anything I’m suspicious of. Over and over again I’m seeing that any chicken that shows a weakness and is allowed to remain and reproduce causes genetic problems.

I did turn Erik the Red out today after culling Indo and Erik immediately disappeared into the depths of the woods. We’ll see if he comes back.

I've heard so many things about Mareks it's not even funny. I am anti vax on myself and on my animals and a firm believer in culling. I've had chickens that showed signs of Mareks that I bought at feed stores which after I thought about it I realized probably vaccinated for it. I've heard once you have it on your farm it's there forever. Seems like if someone didn't have it on their farm then as long as they only hatched birds and didn't vaccinate they would likely never experience it. I've heard once you bring in a vaccinated bird then you've brought in Mareks and you have to vaccinate all of them from now on. That doesn't sit well with me. I believe God designed humans and animals to survive all these thousands of years just fine without ever a need for needles and laboratories. Do you think that tolerance to Mareks can be selected for and eventually an immunity can arise? Just wondering your thoughts on all this.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I've heard so many things about Mareks it's not even funny. I am anti vax on myself and on my animals and a firm believer in culling. I've had chickens that showed signs of Mareks that I bought at feed stores which after I thought about it I realized probably vaccinated for it. I've heard once you have it on your farm it's there forever. Seems like if someone didn't have it on their farm then as long as they only hatched birds and didn't vaccinate they would likely never experience it. I've heard once you bring in a vaccinated bird then you've brought in Mareks and you have to vaccinate all of them from now on. That doesn't sit well with me. I believe God designed humans and animals to survive all these thousands of years just fine without ever a need for needles and laboratories. Do you think that tolerance to Mareks can be selected for and eventually an immunity can arise? Just wondering your thoughts on all this.

I strongly adhere to the idea that Marek’s can be totally beaten by promoting birds that although exposed, never show symptoms. I’ve read some speculation in the literature that all chicken flocks that have existed long-term have Marek’s and the difference between flocks that have issues with it and flocks that don’t is 1) the strain of the virus present and 2) the genetic immunity to that strain inherent in the flock.

There a lot of evidence that Marek’s exists in the wild among various species of birds, just as bird flu does. It would seem to me that if Marek’s was always a death sentence for a flock, eventually it would have wiped out any bird species world-wide by now that can otherwise biologically have Mareks’s, as the virus has this way of laying dormant for years and thus allowing its spread to go unchecked until conditions cause the virus to go cancerous.

It seems that gamefowl breeders are on the vanguard of producing Marek’s-resistant chickens. I have either talked to or observed several gamefowl breeders who have beat Marek’s by culling birds that show symptoms and only promoting chickens that seem immune. After a few years, they appear to lose no more chickens to Marek’s and it doesn’t appear again.

I think it will simply be a slow grind for me to reproduce birds that have never shown symptoms. I’m down to about 2 dozen mature chickens on my entire yard that have not ever shown symptoms that I have noticed. Lanky is the last bird that has at most shown some skinniness I don’t like when in free range, as measured by feeling his breast bone. But I’m not confident enough that its Marek’s-related to cull him. Currently he’s thick breasted but that’s because he has infinite food in the coop. I am considering taking Erik off of free range and placing Lanky on free range until summer to see how well he holds weight.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

A few generations of natural selection and Marek's is irrelevant. Those susceptible to it die and those resistant live

I read an article recently that pointed out that the average chicken keeper doesn't have a flock capable of reproduction. They simply buy chickens from hatcheries or breeders with artificially sterile environments, keep them until they die, then buy more chickens

This means that at no point does natural selection ever take part in the lives of the average chicken. It's always just human tampering, to maintain traits that have nothing to do with resistance to disease

Humans create the conditions for Marek's disease to kill by using artificial selection for superficial traits

 

[genesis1verse1]

A few generations of natural selection and Marek's is irrelevant. Those susceptible to it die and those resistant live

I read an article recently that pointed out that the average chicken keeper doesn't have a flock capable of reproduction. They simply buy chickens from hatcheries or breeders with artificially sterile environments, keep them until they die, then buy more chickens

This means that at no point does natural selection ever take part in the lives of the average chicken. It's always just human tampering, to maintain traits that have nothing to do with resistance to disease

Humans create the conditions for Marek's disease to kill by using artificial selection for superficial traits

I think there are a lot of people who out of a well meaning compassion for animals get fooled into the idea that every living creature must be saved and nursed back to health. That is fine if the animal is your personal pet that you or your family has bonded with but it can be a detriment when it comes to breeding and improving the species/breed. I can't speak for hatcheries breeding practices or any chicken breeders for that matter, but I have witnessed goat breeders who medicate and vaccinate their breeding stock. While they test and cull for contracted diseases, I always felt that all the medicating could definitely be masking weaknesses that could have otherwise been selected against which in the end would completely negate the pharmaceutical approach to raising healthy animals.

 

[Molpet]

I think there are a lot of people who out of a well meaning compassion for animals get fooled into the idea that every living creature must be saved and nursed back to health. That is fine if the animal is your personal pet that you or your family has bonded with but it can be a detriment when it comes to breeding and improving the species/breed. I can't speak for hatcheries breeding practices or any chicken breeders for that matter, but I have witnessed goat breeders who medicate and vaccinate their breeding stock. While they test and cull for contracted diseases, I always felt that all the medicating could definitely be masking weaknesses that could have otherwise been selected against which in the end would completely negate the pharmaceutical approach to raising healthy animals.

Yes the extent people go through is amazing. And they don't understand why vets don't train to take care of $5 chickens.

Eugenics is frowned upon. People treat animals like their children. People don't want to get house dogs or cats fixed because they have a right to experience being a parent.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

First chicks off of Sherman x Liege. Freshly hatched, wet, and not walking yet, but struggling so strong I can barely hold them in my hand. At least one more is pipping. I’m excited to see what they look like tomorrow once they’re dried off and walking. I have them in with some 3/4 cracker chicks (1/4 American game) which should give a good size comparison.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Third chick is in the brooder. This one is black, smaller than the other two. A forth is pipping out of a total of 6 eggs. The very first chick that hatched before the two I showed last night was dead from some sort of umbilical malfunction. So the tally off of this new line of “terrorfowl” is 1 dead after hatching, 3 out of the shell and apparently healthy, a forth pipping, and the last one unknown.

I have another 10 due soon, and I ought to have 22 more to set after today or tomorrow. The first batch of 6 were older, dirty eggs. The batch of 10 are clean, fresh, eggs, and the batch of 22 will be clean and fresh. The Liege are laying great now.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I really like the blue one.

I was wrong about one of the remaining eggs pipping. It had a piece of egg shell stuck to it. Shortly I will candle those two eggs and if they’re duds, I’m going to clean the incubator and set 20 tonight of just the Sherman x Liege crosses.

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

The chicks look great!

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

The chicks look great!

I got 10 more due end of the week and I set the 20 last night.

The test will be how well they handle the Marek's. Sherman has not shown a sign of it at any time since I received him from you, which I believe was about a year ago this coming April. Nor have the Liege shown any sign. I got these Liege off the original farm my previous Liege came off of. I'm hoping some all of that resilience that well-bred orientals are known for comes through these chicks.

I'd like to get a bird with Sherman's size and physique but with the full feathering and larger wings of the Liege.

I'd have to consider that after all these several years, my first line of "terrorfowl" to be a failure for what I wanted them to be, due almost entirely to the Marek's. That particular combination of the individual aseel and Liege I created that line with with were prone to whatever strain of Marek's I have here. Those birds will live on through the three-way crosses between them and the Crackers that are running around the farmyard. If they produce healthy chicks this spring, I'll let them keep living on. But the final product will likely be a bird that is sized like an American game and mostly bankivoid in its traits except for comb and neck length. If Sherman's line does well I will of course let them cross into the first line to see what happens. But I could also foresee keeping Sherman's line separate and starting the "terrorfowl" side of the project anew with them.

I suppose the 3 way crosses are more in line with my original goals on page 1 of the thread. I ended up crossing Liege with Cracker junglefowl hybrids. It's just not the big bird I wanted it to be. Natural selection is favoring the birds that are more bankivoid in build, even if that selection is based more on disease resistance instead of raw predator avoidance.