Deworming experience from start to finish.

[desertmarcy]

In regard to the portion of your post highlighted in this color, I've gotta say, "Bravo, for taking such efforts to provide the minimum amount req'd, so as to accomplish the desired result." That is, of course, provided that tapeworms weren't among your flock's current enemies.

Efficacy of Albendazole Against Experimental Raillietina tetraqona Infection in Chickens
​

The primary reason benzimidazole compounds are metabolized so much more quickly w/in chickens than w/in ruminents can be seen w/in the definition (Mammals of the suborder Ruminantia usually have a stomach divided into four compartments, called the rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum ~'-).

As to withdrawal times, since it's an extra-label usage, they don't really provide that information. However, there's a few very important factors to consider, which should absolutely make you (and anybody else that finds this post) much more comfortable w/ the use of this anthelmintic:

​

Now, most folks suggest fourteen days, which provides a considerable margin for error. And, I do understand why nobody wants to ingest chemical compounds w/ long names that aren't found w/in nature. But, albendazole's been used w/in humans for the same reasons, and has been studied considerably as to what potential harm it may have upon us if we inadvertently ingest it.

My favorite points to cite, by far, come from the discussion of Maximum Residue Limits done by European Medicines Agency, from which I'll provide relevant quotes:


Between now and the day you choose to provide the second dosage? I'd collect all eggs, and feed 'em back to the chickens, as there's absolutely no reason not to, and it spares waste.

I'm certainly unqualified to determine any safe number of days, but I'd personally feel entirely comfortable scrambling up anything they'd produce after about 72 hours, because 19 μg/kg is 1 μg less than the amount of aflatoxin allowed in baby food.

Maybe a week, or ten days (just to be on the ridiculously paranoid side ~'-)

All this information is very helpful. I was planning to feed the eggs back to the chickens, specifically the ones that I'm collecting eggs for hatching, not eating. I would think if there is some residual in the eggs, then feeding those eggs back to the chickens would prolong the withdrawal period. So personally, I'll feed the eggs to hens that are laying that I will be hatching, to pullets that aren't laying at all right now, or to the males.

Your last statement, which I put in bold, is logically flawed since every toxic substance has it's own toxicity level. Comparing one to another is not valid.

 

[desertmarcy]

Does one have any trouble obtaining "off label" products. I was asking for general information at the feed store, saying I'd heard various things were "good" for chickens, and they said they "couldn't" sell me anything not labeled for use on chickens if I came in asking specifically about chickens. If I didn't ask ... or I lied ... then I could get whatever.

This really disturbs me.

I know in other kinds of crops there are procedures for getting permission to use things off label.

What got me started on treating my birds was a discussion I had with a judge at a poultry show Saturday. I had never treated any of my birds, yet I had purchased a bottle of Valbazen with the thought in mind that I might need it. Anyway, this person was a judge but was not judging this particular show and was helping me evaluate my Barred Rock cockerel and when he picked him up, he declared "he has worms". I said, you can tell just by feeling? So he showed me how to feel along the keel bone, where the meat was recessed. I said I need another one to compare, so he took out the Barred Rock he had entered and said feel the difference. Yes, indeed, I could. So this started a whole discussion on worming and he said he goes to Mexico and gets a wormer that has a component not available anymore in the U.S. (Sorry my notes are still in my truck as yet not all unpacked---will get it and post later) and he CLAIMED it was the only thing that would treat tapeworms. So I said, not remembering exactly what it was I bought, but I did remember it was supposed to treat tapeworms, that I had some stuff that does. He asked was it liquid--Yes--then he said, no it won't. The medicine he was getting (with no declaration at the border of course) is a tablet. Perhaps he is right if the product is specifically marked for POULTRY, I'm not sure. I didn't think to say well this is a cattle medicine, but then I did look at the bottle of pills he had and one of the ingredients was albendazole, but the ingredient that he said worked for the tapeworms was something else (there were 3 active ingredients in this pill). He does repackage and sell the pills, but I said I wanted to try what I already bought first.

Anyway, one does tend to believe someone who has a heck of a lot more experience with poultry that I---but on the other hand, just because he is a poultry judge, doesn't mean he is right on everything. And when I caught and weighed and treated all those birds yesterday, I felt around their keel bone---and by his method of judging, every one of them has worms---hard to believe, especially in this very hot and dry climate, birds living in a relatively new (just a year old) spot in the yard never used for poultry before, no dogs or cats or wild birds getting in the pens. I suppose they could be picking up something from an intermediate host of some sort (someone mentioned ants??). But I have never seen any signs of worms in their poop like the photo posted previously on this thread. I just want to be sure and don't have the time to float and test a lot of birds and I do have a few that seem a lot thinner than they should and they get a very good, high quality diet. Sorry for the long post and long story!

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I would find a new store or order off the internet...that is silly!

How odd!

Maybe they are worried about liability?

I'm sure it has something to do with the law ... they most likely want to keep their business.

This is how it goes with farm chemicals ... there are regulations, the government is serious about these regulations, and the local agencies are there to help farmers comply with the law by either suggesting other chemicals if possible, or applying for special permits. So, anywhere that sells farm chemicals is careful about how the customers will use them. There is often a fair amount continuing education, licensing, and continual paperwork required ... for both the buyer and the seller.

I am certainly not an expert in farm chemicals, but I do believe the law is important. I know farm chemical laws have been tightening lately with lots of push-back from environmental groups, and this does make things "harder" for farmers and gives the local enforcement agencies more work. I think probably some of the laws are "silly," but I am in no position to decide which ones. There can be very dire consequences from farm chemicals even if they are used "legally," which is why the law is a moving target.

Anywho ... as a newish "chicken farmer" with a fair number of birds, it is my responsibility to get informed about what chemicals might be useful for me in certain eventualities (though I would much prefer to NOT introduce chemicals to my flock) ... hence my investigation of this thread.

I really appreciate everybody's contributions here. I'm constantly impressed with the knowledge base of BYC members.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Does one have any trouble obtaining "off label" products. I was asking for general information at the feed store, saying I'd heard various things were "good" for chickens, and they said they "couldn't" sell me anything not labeled for use on chickens if I came in asking specifically about chickens. If I didn't ask ... or I lied ... then I could get whatever.

This really disturbs me.

I know in other kinds of crops there are procedures for getting permission to use things off label.

Keep in mind that most folks workin' at stores only do what they're told, or what they think ... the 'extra label' use is merely something related to the FDA regulations that prohibit them from labeling products for other uses, and has nothing to do w/ true measures of safety/effectiveness. In fact? Many medications are suggested for use in water, simply because they can't be prescribed for incorporation into feed, because (again) the FDA said so.

Fenbendazole, which has been proven safe all the way up to a full gram per kilogram of body weight, will kill every worm w/in your chickens *except* tapeworms (which can be ruled out by visual inspection of their dropping w/ the naked eye) provided that they are given a minimum of 20 mg/kg of bw for three consecutive days.

If you see tapeworms? Then, Valbazen (albendazole), which has been proven to eliminate 100% of R. tetragona at 25 mg/kg of bw for three consecutive days.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

First? There's somethin' odd goin' on w/ your posts ... maybe you're responding *within* the quotation box, rather than below it? So, I'll cut 'n paste here:



My logic is rarely ever flawed. My communication of it, however, hardly ever isn't ~'-)

What I'm saying is that there was one less μg/kg of a residue from what is known to be a safe medication, than is allowed of what is known to be a tremendously poisonous substance.

As to the eggs? If feed during the ten days between treatments, then they have absolutely no affect upon the withdrawal times, as the count begins after the second dosage, rather than the first.

I don't believe I would incubate any eggs that contain residues, and would not feed any eggs that do to the rooster or hens to be involved in any breeding program within several weeks, as that brings up yet another of my nearly page long posts (and, nobody really wants that ~'-)

 

[tgooberbutt]

I'm sure it has something to do with the law ... they most likely want to keep their business.

I am certainly not an expert in farm chemicals, but I do believe the law is important. I know farm chemical laws have been tightening lately with lots of push-back from environmental groups, and this does make things "harder" for farmers and gives the local enforcement agencies more work. I think probably some of the laws are "silly," but I am in no position to decide which ones. There can be very dire consequences from farm chemicals even if they are used "legally," which is why the law is a moving target.

I am certainly new to this as well, so we're all learning as we go...According to The Chicken Health Handbook the Gail Damerow ...and this is the most recent edition, which unfortunately is 1994... it says there are no approved tapeworm medications for chickens in the US. From the Veterinary Parisitology Handbook, the Foreyt book, and he's a professor of veterinary medicine at Washington State Univ., and this is the 2001 edition (again, unfortunately) they list Niclosamide @50mg/kg or Praziquantel @6mg/kg-repeated in 10-14 days. Both are off-label for chickens.

My only guess for why these medications are not approved for chickens is that for the commercial market, chickens are all slaughtered before worms can really be a problem with their production efficiency, and the market for backyard chickens isn't worth the hassle/expense of USDA/FDA approval. I don't think it's illegal to use these medications off-label, it's just these medications are not blatantly endorsed/approved for usage in that way.

 

[tgooberbutt]

What got me started on treating my birds was a discussion I had with a judge at a poultry show Saturday. I had never treated any of my birds, yet I had purchased a bottle of Valbazen with the thought in mind that I might need it. Anyway, this person was a judge but was not judging this particular show and was helping me evaluate my Barred Rock cockerel and when he picked him up, he declared "he has worms". I said, you can tell just by feeling? So he showed me how to feel along the keel bone, where the meat was recessed. I said I need another one to compare, so he took out the Barred Rock he had entered and said feel the difference. Yes, indeed, I could.

This is actually very helpful - I picked up all my chickens, and yes, the keel bone on each were very prominent...they are all hiding skinniness under all those feathers




The tablet form, I'm guessing is Praziquantel - it's only sold in powder and tablet form...also not approved for chickens in the US, but is used for cats, dogs, aquarium fish, AND people (infected with pork tapeworms).

The two most common and effective medicines for tapeworms...seemingly in most animals, including people, is Albendazole and Praziquantel. For people, the therapy is usually a combination of the two. I've treated my chickens with Albendazole, and the Praziquantel just arrived today...



I'm not sure what the third medication might be....my only guess is Niclosamide...


So visual inspection with the naked eye will only reveal tapeworm proglottids - what was posted in the photos. There are a bunch of other types of worms that chickens can have, but those worm eggs are not visible to the naked eye, and you would need to conduct a fecal float and look under a microscope to confirm which type of worm(s). The good news is, if it's not tapeworms, then the variety of medication you can use becomes more "on-label."

 

[gg706]

Lets face it here. They regulate and approve all kinds of drugs. Which later on turn out to cause heartattack, mental problems, stroke, etc. I am going to go with what others have used and have proven that worked in their own backyard flock. Gonna put in an order at Jeffers tomorrow as I have not wormed my chickens yet and they are 10 months old.
I wasnt too concerned because I did not see anything in their poo. Learned some things on this thread!

Is it ok to worm them when they are molting?

 

[casportpony]

I am certainly new to this as well, so we're all learning as we go...According to The Chicken Health Handbook the Gail Damerow ...and this is the most recent edition, which unfortunately is 1994... it says there are no approved tapeworm medications for chickens in the US. From the Veterinary Parisitology Handbook, the Foreyt book, and he's a professor of veterinary medicine at Washington State Univ., and this is the 2001 edition (again, unfortunately) they list Niclosamide @50mg/kg or Praziquantel @6mg/kg-repeated in 10-14 days. Both are off-label for chickens.

My only guess for why these medications are not approved for chickens is that for the commercial market, chickens are all slaughtered before worms can really be a problem with their production efficiency, and the market for backyard chickens isn't worth the hassle/expense of USDA/FDA approval. I don't think it's illegal to use these medications off-label, it's just these medications are not blatantly endorsed/approved for usage in that way.

From: http://healthybirds.umd.edu/Disease/Deworming Birds.pdf

"Piperazine is the only FDA approved drug for treatment of roundworms in poultry. Currently, there are no approved drugs for treatment of Capillaria, tape or cecal worms in poultry. As a result, the drugs below (other than Piperazine) are used extra-label in drinking water when prescribed and monitored by a licensed veterinarian. FDA prohibits extra-label drug use in feed; therefore all treatments must be administered via drinking water. Follow all manufacturer recommended doses. Consult your veterinarian for prescriptions and withdrawal times."​

 

[tgooberbutt]

From: http://healthybirds.umd.edu/Disease/Deworming Birds.pdf

"Piperazine is the only FDA approved drug for treatment of roundworms in poultry. Currently, there are no approved drugs for treatment of Capillaria, tape or cecal worms in poultry. As a result, the drugs below (other than Piperazine) are used extra-label in drinking water when prescribed and monitored by a licensed veterinarian. FDA prohibits extra-label drug use in feed; therefore all treatments must be administered via drinking water. Follow all manufacturer recommended doses. Consult your veterinarian for prescriptions and withdrawal times."​

LOL - great. Guess I'm going outlaw here