Diatomaceous Earth: Harmful or Useful?

[Weeg]

I've always though it was snake oil since I joined this thread. I've never used it for infestation of any kind, but was surprised to find that after an older friend added it to the coop, the mites disappeared.
I told and older friend of mine to get Permethrin powder for the mites. He ended up getting DE, and used it in place of the bedding! He filled the nesting boxes, the floor, covered the roots, everything! My immediate though was "oh no", but he's pretty set in his ways, and I figured harm had already been done.
I told him that when he cleaned the coop, he should put normal bedding back in and I'de bring Permethrin spray to finish off the mites. Well, the mites were gone. I check at night multiple times, checked the chickens, nothing. The chickens also seemed to be login better. Growing feathers back, and started regularly laying eggs again.
So I don't know, I used the spay after I check and saw nothing, and I only had a limited supply, not enough to cover the whole coop.
I don't use it or trust it, but it was very odd to me that the bugs actually disappeared after its use. Maybe a coincidence?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

This:

Signs of Toxicity - Animals​

• Dermal exposures to cats and dogs may cause temporary paresthesia and neurological signs as evidenced by paw flicking or ear, tail or skin twitching, or rolling on the ground.5
• Cats exposed dermally to some permethrin products may experience hyperexcitability, depression, ataxia, vomiting, anorexia, tremors, or convulsions. Symptoms can begin within a few minutes or up to three days after the exposure. Some permethrin products contain high concentrations of the active ingredient and are labeled for use only on dogs. Close physical contact with a recently treated dog may also lead to symptoms in cats. If symptoms are severe and untreated, they may result in death.5,7,10

But topical can be toxic to dogs according to the study causing drooling, paralysis, and other such side effects.
This is one reason I can't use permethrin based products on my current dog since she has had issues with such products as well I had a dog in the past that also had severe reactions to permethrin based products.
With that said, I have used permethrin dust on chickens. But, I can't use sprays due to one of my hens having repiratory issues when sprays if any kind are used.

THE DOSAGE IS THE POISON. You are doing FEAR, not science. Too much water will cause either drowning if inhaled, or water toxemia (water intoxication/water poisoning) if consumed. And I could happily provide you the symptoms:

"early stages present symptoms of confusion, disorientation, nausea, and vomiting, but also changes in mental state and psychotic symptoms. Early detection is crucial to prevent severe hyponatraemia, which can lead to seizures, coma, and death."


No, I'm not waiving away your experiences. My dogs have neurologic effects from their oral anti-tick and heartworm medicine, its why they evidence as "fly biting" behaviors.

The question is How MUCH Permethrin does it take before those symptoms you quoted usually appear? From the same source:

Dogs fed daily doses of permethrin at 0, 5, 50 or 500 mg/kg body weight per day for at least 96 days showed transient signs of permethrin toxicosis at the highest dose used, including tremors. Researchers determined the NOAEL to be 50 mg/kg per day for this study, based on increased liver weights and neurological effects.

That's right. To get the symptoms you quoted, dogs were FED 500 mg (about 1/6th of an ounce for us that think in Imperial, not metric) of permethrin per 2.2# of their own weight for almost 100 days. Given that absorption of permethrin thru the skin is something like 2%, you would have to fill a pool with the stuff and let your dog bathe in it for hours at a time to see similar dosages... Dogs inhaling the stuff at a concentration of 500 mg per cubic meter, for six hours at a time, five days a week, for four months did not show the very scary symptoms you quoted. Do you have any idea how many bottles of permethrin spray that would take??

Here's Oxygen Toxicity.
Nitrogen Toxicity which the State of Oklahoma proposed for terminating Death Row inmates in 2018. The air you breathe, btw, is about 78% nitrogen...

There is *nothing* on this planet I can think of which won't kill you in sufficient dosage - generally in really horrible ways - but even if you could avoid all of it, you are still going to die. Probably in a really horrible way. That's statistics. So will I. So will everyone else. Life is quite impersonal that way. Death too.

Relax. Educate yourself. Then roll your dice and take your chances. There are no guarantees, except that at some point, somehow, whether you take (educated) risks or not, *something* will end very badly for each of us.

 

[Crazy Maizie]

THE DOSAGE IS THE POISON. You are doing FEAR, not science. Too much water will cause either drowning if inhaled, or water toxemia (water intoxication/water poisoning) if consumed. And I could happily provide you the symptoms:

"early stages present symptoms of confusion, disorientation, nausea, and vomiting, but also changes in mental state and psychotic symptoms. Early detection is crucial to prevent severe hyponatraemia, which can lead to seizures, coma, and death."


No, I'm not waiving away your experiences. My dogs have neurologic effects from their oral anti-tick and heartworm medicine, its why they evidence as "fly biting" behaviors.

The question is How MUCH Permethrin does it take before those symptoms you quoted usually appear? From the same source:

Dogs fed daily doses of permethrin at 0, 5, 50 or 500 mg/kg body weight per day for at least 96 days showed transient signs of permethrin toxicosis at the highest dose used, including tremors. Researchers determined the NOAEL to be 50 mg/kg per day for this study, based on increased liver weights and neurological effects.

That's right. To get the symptoms you quoted, dogs were FED 500 mg (about 1/6th of an ounce for us that think in Imperial, not metric) of permethrin per 2.2# of their own weight for almost 100 days. Given that absorption of permethrin thru the skin is something like 2%, you would have to fill a pool with the stuff and let your dog bathe in it for hours at a time to see similar dosages... Dogs inhaling the stuff at a concentration of 500 mg per cubic meter, for six hours at a time, five days a week, for four months did not show the very scary symptoms you quoted. Do you have any idea how many bottles of permethrin spray that would take??

Here's Oxygen Toxicity.
Nitrogen Toxicity which the State of Oklahoma proposed for terminating Death Row inmates in 2018. The air you breathe, btw, is about 78% nitrogen...

There is *nothing* on this planet I can think of which won't kill you in sufficient dosage - generally in really horrible ways - but even if you could avoid all of it, you are still going to die. Probably in a really horrible way. That's statistics. So will I. So will everyone else. Life is quite impersonal that way. Death too.

Relax. Educate yourself. Then roll your dice and take your chances. There are no guarantees, except that at some point, somehow, whether you take (educated) risks or not, *something* will end very badly for each of us.

I didn't give my dogs anywhere near that type of dosage and they have had issues and demonstrated toxic reactions - the same that were listed and not even at that high of dose. In fact one of my current dogs cannot have any chemical flea and tick "preventative" whether it is topical or internal (prescribed or over the counter) as she has had such severe reactions that she was hospitalized and we almost lost her. I am not promoting fear, but nothing is 100% safe for everyone or every animal. I was stating my own animals reactions as well as pulling info from the same scientific article that you did.
Please don't patronize me, I have educated myself. I was quoting facts from the source that you shared. Whether you like those facts or not, they are still facts. I also mentioned that when I spray any type of preventative in the coop one of my chickens ends up with a respiratory issue. It doesn't matter if its listed safe for chickens or not. It is my experience and I was sharing it. I can only use dry products with her. I don't know why, its the way it has turned out.
I would not spray permethrin products on my dogs or around my dogs due to their reactions to the topical permetherin products. I don't care what the study found or what the final outcome was.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I didn't give my dogs anywhere near that type of dosage and they have had issues and demonstrated toxic reactions - the same that were listed and not even at that high of dose. In fact one of my current dogs cannot have any chemical flea and tick "preventative" whether it is topical or internal (prescribed or over the counter) as she has had such severe reactions that she was hospitalized and we almost lost her. I am not promoting fear, but nothing is 100% safe for everyone or every animal. I was stating my own animals reactions as well as pulling info from the same scientific article that you did.
Please don't patronize me, I have educated myself. I was quoting facts from the source that you shared. Whether you like those facts or not, they are still facts. I also mentioned that when I spray any type of preventative in the coop one of my chickens ends up with a respiratory issue. It doesn't matter if its listed safe for chickens or not. It is my experience and I was sharing it. I can only use dry products with her. I don't know why, its the way it has turned out.
I would not spray permethrin products on my dogs or around my dogs due to their reactions to the topical permetherin products. I don't care what the study found or what the final outcome was.

Its unfortunate that you have had so many creatures so sensitive to chemicals whose effects are not nearly so pronounced in the vast majority of their species. Perhaps I misinterpreted your post, but it appeared to be firmly written from the viewpoint of the precautionary principle - a demonstrably false premise. I have a friend alergic to chocolate - deathly so. Another very alergic to peanuts. I'm not giving up my Reese's Cups.

 

[Folly's place]

Spinosad is a nice insecticide, very expensive right now, and approved for use on poultry in the USA. I may use it someday, when permethrin no longer is effective here. Until then, it's permethrin spray, preferably, or the dust, at least in the nest boxes, for our chickens.
DE has such limited effectiveness, it's not worth the respiratory issues it can cause. And, it's open pit mined; wonder how those poor workers are doing down there?
Inhaling any dust is a bad thing, especially having asthma! I had real issues the time I dusted 35 chickens with permethrin dust, while not wearing a good face mask. A very unpleasant experience, just short of a hospital visit.
Whatever you do, wear protection!
Mary

 

[Birdie mom]

What do y'all think ab this? It's 25% Permethrin, is that enough?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/y-tex-gardstar-garden-poultry-dust?cm_vc=-10005

 

[katelwil]

For those of you who think DE works, have any of you treated your chickens for lice using DE? I see a lot about mites, but not lice. Does it work the same way?

DE is supposed to work by drying up the insects that come in contact with the powder (whether it is poured on them or they fall into, or walk through it.) It works by drying them up and killing them. This worked like a charm in my bee hive; killing hive beetles, larvae and wax moth& wax moth larvae. So, I would think it would do the same for lice. But this is only my personal experience.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

What do y'all think ab this? It's 25% Permethrin, is that enough?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/y-tex-gardstar-garden-poultry-dust?cm_vc=-10005

I don't use the dusts, but that's PLENTY of permethrin.

DEET is something I use for personal bug protection at very high conetnration in very small areas. Permethrin washed into clothing at small concentrations across very large areas. - Same for your chickens - permethrin only kills the mites that contact it, so broad area, low concerntration. I have a P10 spray I keep in the second coop, though I've thankfully not had to use it.

I guess if its thinned out further with dry sand in a dust bath, the 25% makes sense.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

DE is supposed to work by drying up the insects that come in contact with the powder (whether it is poured on them or they fall into, or walk through it.) It works by drying them up and killing them. This worked like a charm in my bee hive; killing hive beetles, larvae and wax moth& wax moth larvae. So, I would think it would do the same for lice. But this is only my personal experience.

DE is the fossilized exoskeletons of long dead very simple critters (diatoms). It works like sandpaper, sraping off the waxy coating on the exoskeletons of mites, beetles, roaches, etc - who then lose moisture and slowly dessicate (dehydrate) till dead.

its not quick. as I said above, I don't find it at all useful in the coop, and I certainly don't want me or my birds breathing the stuff, but I do use it in my nice dry shed. Mice leave wonderful footprints in it (so I know to set new traps), and it keeps the roaches under control.

 

[neo71665]

DE is supposed to work by drying up the insects that come in contact with the powder (whether it is poured on them or they fall into, or walk through it.) It works by drying them up and killing them. This worked like a charm in my bee hive; killing hive beetles, larvae and wax moth& wax moth larvae. So, I would think it would do the same for lice. But this is only my personal experience.

It works in a bee hive because that is a dry environment. Bees keep it that way by fanning their wings to produce honey. Still takes a bit to kill and is far from instant.
A chicken coop is far from a dry environment. Chickens do everything they can to keep it humid from their breathing to manure. DE is 100% useless once it gets wet and will suck moisture from the air.

Wasn't gonna bring up we use it in bee hives but yeah it does work there for mites. Different conditions so yes it can work but spreading it in a chicken coop doesn't work.