Difference between Erminette Breed and Erminette Color?

[IowaBlueCurt]

Got another question for the history buffs out there. I have read old accounts which state the Erminette was not only a color but there was a separate breed which was Erminette carrying the Erminette color. Is this true? However, I've also read that Wyandottes and Rocks were also bred in the Erminette color at one time. So has this always been just a color like Palomino in horses? (No horse breed is "Palomino" however, Quarterhorses, Mustangs, Thorobreds, etc., can come in the Palomino color.

Put simply; is the Erminette a color phase only, or was it originally a breed which carried this color..... perhaps both are true??

 

[3riverschick]

Got another question for the history buffs out there. I have read old accounts which state the Erminette was not only a color but there was a separate breed which was Erminette carrying the Erminette color. Is this true? However, I've also read that Wyandottes and Rocks were also bred in the Erminette color at one time. So has this always been just a color like Palomino in horses? (No horse breed is "Palomino" however, Quarterhorses, Mustangs, Thorobreds, etc., can come in the Palomino color.

Put simply; is the Erminette a color phase only, or was it originally a breed which carried this color..... perhaps both are true??

Hi

Yes, it was also a breed. You can read more about the breed by using the advanced book search at Google Books.com http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search
Very interesting. From what have researched there are 2 forms of coloring called Erminette. One is the old breed. The other was an old name for the eWh based Silver Columbian bird like a Light Sussex. (1) There used to be an Erminette Marans, so called back in the early part of last century. It looked like a Light Sussex, not the Erminette breed. It has recently been recreated by Lynnrae Troples, a Pennsylvania breeder, using a Light Sussex hen covered by a Marans cock.
Best,
Karen
(1) Actually, as you will read in the next post, Robinson states The Erminette breed is one color. The Ermine color is another color
Erminette: a heterozygous "splash colored bird and breed. It does not breed true.
Ermine : a "Light" colored bird and breed. Sometimes called Erminette because it was based on the ermine color, not the actual Erminette breed. The Light" color is based on either the eb or eWh locus and does breed true.
So far, I have only read of one ermine colored breed being called erminette. That was the eWh colored Marans. The rest (both eWh and eb based breeds seem to be called ermine. Whether this is from a poor translation of the French ( in the case of the Marans) or if there actually are other ermine breeds called Erminette, I do not know. Perhaps more indepth research will reveal more answers.

 

[3riverschick]

More on "Erminette" from Google Books - a jumping off point for research
Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture
By John Henry Robinson Page 520
http://tinyurl.com/kqhznph

The Poultry Monthly - Volume 22 - Page 133
AN ERMINE WYANDOTTE.
BY GEO. H. BRACKENBURY. ( 1900)
http://tinyurl.com/pknwoly

advert:
F. A. Thompson, Breeder of Erminettes, Exclusively
http://tinyurl.com/na7dpbp
Introduction to Genetic Analysis - Volume 10 - Page 253
Anthony J.F. Griffiths - 2008 - ‎Preview
http://tinyurl.com/mj7knj4
The Encyclopedia of Historic and Endangered Livestock and ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=030013813X
Janet Vorwald Dohner - 2001 - ‎Preview - ‎
Other interesting breeds that have become extinct in North America include the Brakel, Breda, Erminette, Ixworth, Modern Langshan, Old English Pheasant Fowl, Scotch Dumpy, Scotch Grey, and Surrey. The Chantecler is the only breed of ...
Records of the Genetics Society of America -
Issue 13 - Page 23
books.google.com/books?id=AeRGAAAAYAAJ
Genetics Society of America - 1944 - ‎Snippet view -
The distinguishing feature of the Erminette breed is the color of the plumage, which is predominantly white, with an admixture of enough black feathers to give a variegated appearance that is quite attractive. Feathers that are black, or partly so, ...
Bantam Breeding and Genetics - Page 183
books.google.com/books?id=TRxBAAAAYAAJ
Fred P. Jeffrey - 1977 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
Erminette There is no Erminette Bantam but one could be made from the large Erminette should an enterprising breeder decide to do so. Hutt (1964) established the genetic basis of this pattern: In typical Erminettes the plumage is variegated, ...
* Genetics Of the Fowl by Hutt is available to read online for free. Try Hathitrust Digital Library for the book.
New York Legislative Documents - Volume 5 - Page 157
books.google.com/books?id=9JwaAQAAIAAJ
New York (State). Legislature - 1944 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
Genetics of the fowl Mutations and linkage (F. B. Hutt, J. H. Bruckner, and C. D. Mueller) Birds hatched in 1941 for study of the Erminette color pattern, the "ragged wing" mutation, sex-linked albinism, and other mutations, as well as for linkage ...

Report of the New York State College of Agriculture at ...
books.google.com/books?id=WwlJAAAAMAAJ
New York State College of Agriculture, ‎Cornell University. Agricultural Experiment Station - 1946 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
In the F» and backcross populations, the Erminette color pattern segregated as expected, proving that all splashed Erminettes are heterozygous. From the linkage studies no immediate practical applications are evident, but there are some ...

Best Regards,
Karen

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I was just there and downloaded some stuff. The book by Thomson I can't find anywhere. I can't get it to download and I can't find a copy to buy either........

 

[3riverschick]

I was just there and downloaded some stuff. The book by Thomson I can't find anywhere. I can't get it to download and I can't find a copy to buy either........

Hi,
advert:
F. A. Thompson, Breeder of Erminettes, Exclusively
http://tinyurl.com/na7dpbp
Apparently this is an advertisement someone is selling? Nope, not for sale.
Also not listed in any library by WorldCAT. Sometimes we see "ghost" listings
like this. Historical only, sigh.
http://www.worldcat.org/title/f-a-thompson-breeder-of-erminettes-exclusively/oclc/318921867
Best,
Karen

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Got it! Thank you. I did find an interesting article though. I'll try to snip it and paste it to the site.

 

[3riverschick]

GENETICS OF THE FOWL
by
By: HUTT, Ph.D., D.Sc. (Edin.)
Professor of Animal Genetics
New York State College of Agriculture, Cornell University
FIRST EDITION
McGRAW-HILL BOOK COMPANY, INC.
New York : Toronto : London 1949
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006160314;view=1up;seq=9

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Found some interesting facts while reading through some old poultry journals concerning the Erminette. As attested in the first post of this thread via the quote from Sandhill Preservation Center's catalog, there is a lot of confusion about the Erminette in breed and color. Here's some of what I've been able to uncover:

Everything I've found started in the 1870-1930 era. However, there is still some to be found much later than that, this is simply the dates of when the first references of the Erminette have been found in my study. I'm sure everyone out here can remember the robe worn by most of the nobility in Europe (It's white with random black spots), this garment is made from the Ermine which is in the rodent family and is solid white with the exception of the tip of its tail which is solid black. On the robe, they arrange the tips of the tail at regular intervals so as to create the color distiction of the robe.

It appears that to the breeders of this time era, the creation of two color types were both tied to the famous robes of the European Royalty: The Ermine and the Erminette. The Ermine pattern is what is commonly known today as the Columbian (or Light in Brahma, Dorking, and Sussex). When Columbian Orpingtons were first introduced by their originator (Mr.Goodwin), they were coined "Ermine Orpington". The Erminette was originally a color pattern brought to the Americas via birds from the West Indies. A breeder took up these imported birds (which are claimed to look similar to Leghorns only slightly smaller), breed them for a number of years, and coined the breed "West Indies". A noted Brahma breeder in the late 1870's-early 1880's set out to produce birds of the West Indies color but with the type of a Brahma. Over the next few decades there were Erminette colored Brahmas, Wyandottes, and Rocks, as well as the original West Indies themselves.
So, we can see that in the early years there were two color patterns that were claiming similar names which no doubt added to the confusion over the years, especially considering that neither the Ermine or Erminette color patterns are standardized in the APA SOP. I have seen over the years individuals who have claimed they had "Erminette Faverolles" but under inspection they turned out to be Columbina colored. My assumption here is that the got confused over the Ermine/Erminette distinction here, and it's entirely possible some individuals believe both names are the same variety instead of two separate varieties.

By the 1940's there was "breed" known as Erminette, however I have been unable to assertain when the transformation from a color variation to a specific breed took place (outside of the West Indies which were a distict breed with a distinct color originally only associated with the breed, they have been long extinct from what I can gather). Clearly there were many breeds exhibiting the Erminette coloration within their respective breeds. But at what point did a separate breed originate with a distinct type and shape? I have yet to find any information about the Erminette as a breed other than a few vague references of them exsisting as such. My conversations with members of the SPPA has not turned up any information about the breed Erminette, however, has turned up plenty of info of the Erminette coloration.

And so, the plot thickens.......

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Here's an article I just came across. It's alittle hard to read, but it completely validated my speculation that early breeders were using both the Ermine and Erminette interchangeably even though both were completely separate varieties! You'll notice by his color description towards the end of the article that he's talking about a true Erminette coloration and not a Columbian (Ermine) coloration.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

This short article sets out to explain why they Erminette was never set up as a Standard Bred bird. Apparently the variences in stock between the breeders was too much for them to set up a singular standard. Some had feathered legs and pea combs (most likely from the gentleman who created an Erminette colored Brahma), some had clean legs and rose combs (no doubt from stock related to the previous post I posted), and some with single combs........No doubt today we'd have the same issue if a Brahma breeder, a Wyandotte breeder, and a Rock breeder were all trying to standardize a color into a singular breed instead of variations within their respective breeds.......hahaha. For some reason however, the Erminette colored Brahma went extinct, the Erminette "Wyandotte" went extinct, and the single comb variation (with clean legs) is all we have left. I speculate that the solid white and solid black byproducts of this coloration were a set back, but like in the blue varieties.