Differences EE, Ameraucana, & Araucana * Pls post pics*

[CrazyTalk]

I'm a dog breeder and this baffles the crap out of me. Animals with standard flaws and faults are genetically still their breed. They just don't fit the standard. a tuftless Araucana is genetically still an Araucana, still has the genetics for blue eggs etc they just have a flaw. AND in South America there ARE Tufted Araucanas, tuftless Araucanas, crested Araucanas, smooth headed Araucanas, Rumpless Araucanas and tailed Araucanas

Dog breeding is prescriptive - you keep pedigrees, and the breed tells you what the animal "IS".

Chicken breeding is Descriptive. Its different.

This is because the showing process developed for very different reasons - dog showing has its roots in the aristocracy, chicken showing has its roots in livestock auctions.


Saying "This bird is an Aracauna" isn't saying "This bird has the genetics of an aracauna, comes from a long line of aracaunas, and will produce aracaunas" - its saying "This bird fits the breed description of an Aracauna".

In APA shows, it is perfectly legal to show birds as one breed despite neither of their parents being of that breed. It is perfectly legal to show a crossbred bird as one breed, and crossbreeding is not uncommon to improve specific traits. If you breed, say a Barred Rock and a Delaware together, you're going to get a barred bird that could be shown as a barred rock (atleast on the hen side).

 

[CrazyTalk]

and if it produces consistently when bred to another 'like' bird.

This part actually isn't true - the only breed I'm aware of that tries to do anything like that is the Ameracauna (the Ameracauna breeders club says that they must produce atleast 50% offspring that meet the breed specification) but I don't think the APA acknowledges that criteria.

Aracaunas wouldn't meet that criteria - they don't breed true (because of the tufted gene)

 

[junebuggena]

This part actually isn't true - the only breed I'm aware of that tries to do anything like that is the Ameracauna (the Ameracauna breeders club says that they must produce atleast 50% offspring that meet the breed specification) but I don't think the APA acknowledges that criteria.

Aracaunas wouldn't meet that criteria - they don't breed true (because of the tufted gene)

The Tuft gene still breeds true 50% of the time. An untufted bird to an tufted bird will produce 50% tufted chicks. The 50% of the time criteria was established by the APA, not an independent breed club.

 

[Selsley]

heres the female frankenchickens
no muffs or beard comb i would say is too big right feet right stature wrong skin


beard, long muffs,compared to the cock, right feet and comb, wrong colour skin


and they dont have red faces like the cock does, they are good layers with about 5 impressively sized eggs a week, so will likely hatch some and see what mutant chicks come out.

 

[CrazyTalk]

The Tuft gene still breeds true 50% of the time. An untufted bird to an tufted bird will produce 50% tufted chicks. The 50% of the time criteria was established by the APA, not an independent breed club.

Every simple dominant gene "breeds true" 50% of the time.
The meaning of "breeds true" is that you get offspring that are categorically identical to their parents.

I see nothing in the SOP about 50%. Could you please quote where in the APA SOP this is defined?

 

[junebuggena]

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/ARTI...Laws Adding Breeds-Varieties to Standard.pdf
Read section B.

 

[CrazyTalk]

That's not what we're talking about at all - and frankly, Aracaunas don't come close to hitting that.

 

[Selsley]

b. Affidavits shall be included from not less than five (5) breeders, of 18 years of age or older, stating that they have bred the breed or variety for not less than five years and that it produces not less than 50% of all specimens reasonably true to type, color, size and comb. One of the five breeders will act as the spokesperson for the group and all correspondence will be between him or her and the Standard Committee. All five (5) breeders must be members of the Association before submitting the affidavit and must be members for a minimum of five (5) years before the first qualifying meet can take place.

 

[junebuggena]

That's not what we're talking about at all - and frankly, Aracaunas don't come close to hitting that.

What are you talking about? A tufted, rumpless, yellow skinned, Silver Duckwing bred to an untufted, rumpless, yellowed skinned, Silver Duckwing will breed at least 50% true.

 

[Ravynscroft]

Dog breeding is prescriptive - you keep pedigrees, and the breed tells you what the animal "IS". 


Chicken breeding is Descriptive. Its different. 

This is because the showing process developed for very different reasons - dog showing has its roots in the aristocracy, chicken showing has its roots in livestock auctions. 


Saying "This bird is an Aracauna" isn't saying "This bird has the genetics of an aracauna, comes from a long line of aracaunas, and will produce aracaunas" - its saying "This bird fits the breed description of an Aracauna". 

In APA shows, it is perfectly legal to show birds as one breed despite neither of their parents being of that breed. It is perfectly legal to show a crossbred bird as one breed, and crossbreeding is not uncommon to improve specific traits. If you breed, say a Barred Rock and a Delaware together, you're going to get a barred bird that could be shown as a barred rock (atleast on the hen side).  

I respectfully disagree...

It is not 'legal' to show anything in an APA show as something it is not... it was done, in fact, by someone who wished to 'see if it could be done'... when it was found out, I do believe they were banned from ever showing within the APA for life...

It is absolutely unethical to purposely misrepresent one breed or mix for anything else...

Also, genotype is just as important as the phenotype... without the proper genotype, the phenotype doesn't breed true... outcrossing must be done carefully as other lines may bring in undesired traits... crossbreeding must be done very judiciously, and only when good traits being introduced outweigh the bad... and can be bred back out with a couple generations or so... and ideally only with breeds that the one you are working on was founded with...

Plus, there are breeds that cannot be crossbred at all or they are always labeled mixed breeds... these are landrace breeds, like Icelandics... they have a very small gene pool in the US and must be traceable back to the 4 lines available to be considered true Icelandics...

And I agree with the other posters, the APA SOP standards on breeding true is a minimum of 50% or higher... 100% is wanted, but not reachable for some breeds...