Dilemma....Help Please, Suspected Botulism

[Haunted55]

I'm curious why an antibiotic would help with a toxin?


Clint

Here's one link that is pro for the use of antibiotics in the treatment of botulism and I'm sure I can find more as I could also find more that are con for them as well.
http://www.drugs.com/health-guide/botulism.html

and another...
http://www.siumed.edu/medicine/id/botulism.htm

Even though botulism, as understood right now, isn't a bacterial infection rather it is anaerobic, it loves airless enviroments and needs them for reproduction, it seems the use of antibiotics do help. Whether it is with the secondary infections or a true affect on the toxins themselves...no clue and to be honest, I really do not care. My duck is gaining everyday, this morning, I know even before weighing her she is getting better as she is now talking and hissing as I walk by her tote. To me that is the sweetest music there is, lol!

I do know that the most important thing I did with her care was give the activated charcoal. This is what started her on the road to recovery and should always be the first course of action with suspected poisonings. The antibiotic, bonus...who knows, they are always having to relook at findings that were taken as gospel before, because new findings just don't support what was believed. I only know what has been working here for my little Bea. In my own opinion, there's as much Divine intervention here as anything else.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Here's one link that is pro for the use of antibiotics in the treatment of botulism and I'm sure I can find more as I could also find more that are con for them as well.
http://www.drugs.com/health-guide/botulism.html

and another...
http://www.siumed.edu/medicine/id/botulism.htm

Even though botulism, as understood right now, isn't a bacterial infection rather it is anaerobic, it loves airless enviroments and needs them for reproduction, it seems the use of antibiotics do help. Whether it is with the secondary infections or a true affect on the toxins themselves...no clue and to be honest, I really do not care. My duck is gaining everyday, this morning, I know even before weighing her she is getting better as she is now talking and hissing as I walk by her tote. To me that is the sweetest music there is, lol!

I do know that the most important thing I did with her care was give the activated charcoal. This is what started her on the road to recovery and should always be the first course of action with suspected poisonings. The antibiotic, bonus...who knows, they are always having to relook at findings that were taken as gospel before, because new findings just don't support what was believed. I only know what has been working here for my little Bea. In my own opinion, there's as much Divine intervention here as anything else.

So true about the Divine intervention H, and thank you for your info, always so nice to have info that someone Knows works even though they had to find it out by almost losing one of their beloved ducks but this will help someone else down the road. So happy for you that she is healing so good.

 

[Haunted55]

Can't believe I missed this excitement... so happy your duck is doing better. So scary. With the seizures, my guess would be that something toxic was ingested... but there are so many other bizarre symptoms. The standing makes me think foreign object? Be warned, my girl had seizures (we thought it was heat-related and the vet did not treat for poisoning) and seemed to get better, then died in my arms barely a week later. If she is well enough I would seriously recommend an x-ray just to be sure something nasty hasn't been swallowed. Also consider continuing the treatment for toxicity, just in case.

Could be the mushrooms, but check your property to be sure... my ducks will eat anything and so many plants are toxic. Mine had gotten into iris corms and jatropha seeds. Both deadly.

Last year we had similar weather to what we are getting this year and yes, the mushrooms cropped up everywhere. I lost 2 ducks to what I believe was botulism. From oncet of symptoms to death was close to 24 hours. After killing all of the mushroom, we lost no more ducks and I got smarter.

My birds are not cuddle pets. So when I can walk right up and scoop one up I know I have a problem. Since there are no Vets near who will see poultry, I am pretty much on my own. I couldn't even get one to sell me a feeding tube, "they don't do that because I am not a trained Vet."

I am sorry your Vet missed the poison element. That's awful! I hope you now have activated charcoal in your medical kit for treating them. I know it's what helped give me the time to get her this far.

 

[Speceider]

Okay, you're saying, based upon human medicine, that botulism is an immuosuppressant, which I can believe. What Cipro and not Baytril?

Clint

 

[Haunted55]

Okay, you're saying, based upon human medicine, that botulism is an immuosuppressant, which I can believe. What Cipro and not Baytril?

Clint

Didn't have it and there was no time to get it for her. Cipro and Baytril are of the same family.

 

[Deleted member 94844]

I am sorry your Vet missed the poison element.  That's awful!  I hope you now have activated charcoal in your medical kit for treating them.  I know it's what helped give me the time to get her this far.

Thank you so much, it was heartbreaking. I do have charcoal here now... I also ripped out everything in my yard and relandscaped with known safe plants. Questionable stuff still crops up, though... weeds, etc... domestic ducks really have no instinct to avoid toxic plants unless they taste terrible.

My bet in your case is on the mushrooms... if it was avian botulism, I doubt she would have been able to stand. One of the symptoms is that they lose the use of their legs and need to paddle with their wings. This is why so many ducks drown on the water from it.

 

[Haunted55]

Thank you so much, it was heartbreaking. I do have charcoal here now... I also ripped out everything in my yard and relandscaped with known safe plants. Questionable stuff still crops up, though... weeds, etc... domestic ducks really have no instinct to avoid toxic plants unless they taste terrible.

My bet in your case is on the mushrooms... if it was avian botulism, I doubt she would have been able to stand. One of the symptoms is that they lose the use of their legs and need to paddle with their wings. This is why so many ducks drown on the water from it.

Trust me, that would have been next. One of the ducks last year, was found floating upside down the morning after she showed any type of sickness. Regardless, this one's alive, still sways when she stands, but if I'm correct, that could take months to go away completely. I'm just so thankful I was able to learn from the first 2 and actually help this little one.

Between the plants and the presents my cats leave for me, I have my work cut out with patroling the property, lol. Soon they will have their new pen and pool/pond and we'll see about sectioning it off so there will always be grass growing in some part of it. With the construction we are doing it's been a trip to keep up with it all.

 

[Haunted55]

Update: Bea weighed in at 2.48 lbs on the 25th. She is still eating and drinking water with vitamins added. If the progress keeps up, I figure she may be well enough to go out with her flock by Monday. She is steadier on her feet and is not happy about being inside away from all her flockmates.

Duh! Forgot to add, she is no longer getting the antibiotic and still is making progress. I will continue with the vitamins though until she is back to her normal self and then probably a week or two beyond then. I do not want a relapse. One other thing I am seeing which at first caused a bit of alarm. Her poop is a bit more green than I'd like to see. Kind of a greenish black, but more green. This tells me her liver did take a hit. At this point I am thinking that I should give her a dosing of the charcoal again and at least once or twice a week until this clears up. Beatrice is not going to like that one bit, lol. The liver will heal, but it takes time. In the meantime since the liver is a toxin sponge, I will do the charcoal to help take some of the load off of it. Will it work? Looks good on paper, but in fact, no clue. About the best I can do right now. I am also going to be alternating plain water with the vitamin water to also give the liver a break. Charcoal on the plain water days.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Update: Bea weighed in at 2.48 lbs on the 25th. She is still eating and drinking water with vitamins added. If the progress keeps up, I figure she may be well enough to go out with her flock by Monday. She is steadier on her feet and is not happy about being inside away from all her flockmates.

Duh! Forgot to add, she is no longer getting the antibiotic and still is making progress. I will continue with the vitamins though until she is back to her normal self and then probably a week or two beyond then. I do not want a relapse. One other thing I am seeing which at first caused a bit of alarm. Her poop is a bit more green than I'd like to see. Kind of a greenish black, but more green. This tells me her liver did take a hit. At this point I am thinking that I should give her a dosing of the charcoal again and at least once or twice a week until this clears up. Beatrice is not going to like that one bit, lol. The liver will heal, but it takes time. In the meantime since the liver is a toxin sponge, I will do the charcoal to help take some of the load off of it. Will it work? Looks good on paper, but in fact, no clue. About the best I can do right now. I am also going to be alternating plain water with the vitamin water to also give the liver a break. Charcoal on the plain water days.

Sounds like a good plan H, sure hope it works and very happy to hear she is doing so well.

 

[Deleted member 94844]

I'm so happy to hear she is doing better... and I think you are smart to flush with charcoal again, just to be sure there aren't any toxins lingering in her system. I don't know of any potential ill effects, hopefully someone will pipe up if there are.