Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I agree that they can be considered the same to an extent but this can come back to the ethics thing. I know my birds are non-cream but they could be showm as cream. I guess I would have to add mahogany or silver to make a bird that is different enough color wise

 

[fowlman01]

Im in agreement too. When I think of more colorful varieties I think of Chestnut expansion (encouragement) I think moving to Gold or Silver in either case is probably something that is more easily recognized but then they would probably not be outwardly distinguished from a Gold or Silver Legbar (especially the males) the cresting seems to be weak in some lines and would further blur the lines between the blue egg layers and the white egg laying Legbars.

Have to remember that Cream are the ones who lay the blue eggs. If you are wanting a blue egg laying Gold Legbar that is a different animal. I suppose you could start with a different colored bird than buff/cream that Punnett used for the blue gene and just go back to Gold Legbar and shoot for another variety all together. (I think I remember them saying silvers may be all but extinct)

The crest and the blue egg seem to be a different characteristic than what would be found in the silver and gold varieties of he Legbar. Off to have lunch with sol2go and see if we can make some progress on the color part of the Creams. Any time any of you are close to Santa Rosa we can have a talk in person.

Walt

 

[1muttsfan]

Off to have lunch with sol2go and see if we can make some progress on the color part of the Creams. Any time any of you are close to Santa Rosa we can have a talk in person.

Walt

Don't we wish

 

[ChicKat]

Oh -- I have to add two historic things...

Last year at the Texas State Fair, APA judge Sam Brush evaluated 30 Cream Legbars. We talked a little about the color dilemma - and he was of the opinion that a new variety wasn't needed - but I did start this thread anyway. It really goes to show you that an APA judge has great insight and a great 'eye'.

Also, way early on Tim Adkerson told us that if the SOP is too difficult to obtain - (not to mention that some don't want to go there) that people will just leave the breed -- After all raising chickens is supposed to be enjoyable. There were a couple of people who have also said that if the SOP is written well enough it can accommodate both looks.

 

[KendyF]

Here Here! Except for the president part. I can barely run myself most days.

I'm going to start a BuffyBugSlayer for president campaign! you are getting a lot of agreement with your view.

When you say this:
I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

That reflects the conclusion I came to a few hundred posts back. Not to say that for someone who wants a truly gold bird (with a brown aka gold wing triangle) -- then with enough interest - it could at some future point become a candidate for a different variety.

Thank you all, this part of the conversation and the review of the birds ChicKat posted was especially helpful for me. For a few pages there I was getting more confused. I also thank those of you who commented on my birds. I think I can live with where this seems to be headed. Thanks for the review of the colors, which I know there are a lot of other things to worry about. However, I am not going to start with a Silver Laced Wyandotte if I am wanting to breed a Blue Wyandotte. This whole conversation has improved my general knowledge of SOPs and genetics as well. A great SOP might not need a picture for some of you, but for me the pictures really helped.

 

[ChicKat]

Not sure if this has been posted here as yet, or if it is common knowledge but this is how points are awarded at the Poultry Club of Great Britain for Cream Legbars according to the breed standard.


SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10

100 Points

As others have said in this thread, there are a lot of things we need to work on in our flocks -- and this list gives the importance of the various ares in the UK.

Please weigh in for those of you who haven't yet..with your view.

ETA - the source for above points is from a uk CL site. http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/standard-for-cream-legbar/4554224408

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I know this is a color thread but weight is listed and it reminded me- how many folks weigh their legbars? In the APA, your bird has to be within a certain % of the standard weight or it is a DQ. In sumatras, this has been an ongoing issue

 

[ChicKat]

I know this is a color thread but weight is listed and it reminded me- how many folks weigh their legbars? In the APA, your bird has to be within a certain % of the standard weight or it is a DQ. In sumatras, this has been an ongoing issue

Good point!!!! - For me, I weigh when I worm - and that helps determine the dosage, I use cydectin [Moxidectin](cattle pour on-- left over from the ranch days) --
I use a drop per pound on the bare skin.

Oh BTW - Texas is a paradise for insects -- they never die ever -- and just go on and grow bigger every year - There is a really intersting read in the CL Club's last newsletter - check out what Kestlyn Penley wrote about TheDragonLady's Chick rearing program and how it was modified to suit Kestlyn's needs.

 

[ChicKat]

I agree that they can be considered the same to an extent but this can come back to the ethics thing. I know my birds are non-cream but they could be showm as cream. I guess I would have to add mahogany or silver to make a bird that is different enough color wise

Perhaps that is the point that is necessary to recognize.

If, as Walt says, the genetics can be in the provenance of the breeders, and the appearance at the Poultry show can be the areas of expertise of the APA judges -- (and of the APA shows I have attended in the past year -- they have really been astute and hit it right out of the ball park with their recognition and expertise of our breed -- based on just the few CLs that they have seen and the SOP-draft that they were given prior.)

So back on topic -- It sounds to me that perhaps if they look cream enough to be shown for cream -- and to make them look different you would add silver or mahogany -- you have kind of identified that the CL falls between the two...represented by the examples of Silver Crele Leghorn and Gold Crele Leghorn. -- And I think that Walt stated a bit earlier that he can see how a crested blue-egg layer would be considered different from these two
gold Crele and Silver Crele Leghorn) -- while I was saying -- "isn't it interesting that for the Gold Legbar and the Silver Legbar -- Punnett didn't just call them Gold Crele Leghorn and Silver Crele Leghorn -- because the genetic code would be that same........ barring on wildtype. "

As Walt has also said -- nobody truly knows what genetics their chickens truly have. That is one reason that genetic are omitted from the APA realm -- and the APA SOP isn't a recipe book of genetic formulae - but I bet if you went to Class room in the Coop or read the Poultry Genetics book that Sigrid Van Dort wrote -- they you would have all those recipes -- (Why am I seeing Potions Classin a Harry potter movie -- I guess because of the idea of recipies)

AS far as the ethics of someone who would cheat to win.... I wonder if that is really a win.? I have to say that there is an old saying that Character is what a man does in the dark - so If I wanted to win a poultry show by faking a bird, what would I win? Would a ribbon be worth my integrity? The cattle breed we raised at the ranch is called BeefMaster - there was a scandal where a ranking officer out crossed one of his bulls to get it to be black - which happens to be a rare to non-existant color in the breed way back at the time, as such those cattle commanded a huge premium (oh yeah, and there was a lot of slick tri-colored marketing involved to extoll the virtues of their unique animal) Some folks began to take a really close look and figured that something wasn't right with this "Grand Champioin" -- and sure enough that Bull was only correct 50% of the genetics. Subsequently DNA testing became required for parts of the Association -- so no one could ever do that again. But his reputation - is totally shot -- he will never redeem it -- ever. Now Registered Cattle, of course, are different from chickens -- and Probably everybody has a story from the world of showing - horses, dogs, you name it -- there are unethical people in the world. Those people have to live with themselves and see that face everytime that they brush their teeth. being found out for such a thing would be the end right there IMO among those who know. From my experience Cattle Ranchers are a very no-nonsense lot of folk and they have long, long long memories.

I should ask FMP if the dairy cattle industry is the same as Beef and pedigrees are important. they sure are when you get into the tens of thousands for one animal world.


JMO

 

[KendyF]

Perhaps that is the point that is necessary to recognize.

If, as Walt says, the genetics can be in the provenance of the breeders, and the appearance at the Poultry show can be the areas of expertise of the APA judges -- (and of the APA shows I have attended in the past year -- they have really been astute and hit it right out of the ball park with their recognition and expertise of our breed -- based on just the few CLs that they have seen and the SOP-draft that they were given prior.)

So back on topic -- It sounds to me that perhaps if they look cream enough to be shown for cream -- and to make them look different you would add silver or mahogany -- you have kind of identified that the CL falls between the two...represented by the examples of Silver Crele Leghorn and Gold Crele Leghorn. -- And I think that Walt stated a bit earlier that he can see how a crested blue-egg layer would be considered different from these two
gold Crele and Silver Crele Leghorn) -- while I was saying -- "isn't it interesting that for the Gold Legbar and the Silver Legbar -- Punnett didn't just call them Gold Crele Leghorn and Silver Crele Leghorn -- because the genetic code would be that same........ barring on wildtype. "

As Walt has also said -- nobody truly knows what genetics their chickens truly have. That is one reason that genetic are omitted from the APA realm -- and the APA SOP isn't a recipe book of genetic formulae - but I bet if you went to Class room in the Coop or read the Poultry Genetics book that Sigrid Van Dort wrote -- they you would have all those recipes -- (Why am I seeing Potions Classin a Harry potter movie -- I guess because of the idea of recipies)

AS far as the ethics of someone who would cheat to win.... I wonder if that is really a win.? I have to say that there is an old saying that Character is what a man does in the dark - so If I wanted to win a poultry show by faking a bird, what would I win? Would a ribbon be worth my integrity? The cattle breed we raised at the ranch is called BeefMaster - there was a scandal where a ranking officer out crossed one of his bulls to get it to be black - which happens to be a rare to non-existant color in the breed way back at the time, as such those cattle commanded a huge premium (oh yeah, and there was a lot of slick tri-colored marketing involved to extoll the virtues of their unique animal) Some folks began to take a really close look and figured that something wasn't right with this "Grand Champioin" -- and sure enough that Bull was only correct 50% of the genetics. Subsequently DNA testing became required for parts of the Association -- so no one could ever do that again. But his reputation - is totally shot -- he will never redeem it -- ever. Now Registered Cattle, of course, are different from chickens -- and Probably everybody has a story from the world of showing - horses, dogs, you name it -- there are unethical people in the world. Those people have to live with themselves and see that face everytime that they brush their teeth. being found out for such a thing would be the end right there IMO among those who know. From my experience Cattle Ranchers are a very no-nonsense lot of folk and they have long, long long memories.

I should ask FMP if the dairy cattle industry is the same as Beef and pedigrees are important. they sure are when you get into the tens of thousands for one animal world.


JMO

However, is it cheating to get to a "Type" with a different route. Just curious. At first glance it would only be unethical if one was selling something which wouldn't breed correctly. I would just like to hear why it is cheating. (Don't worry I have no ability to make any fake birds. I just thought it is an interesting point.