Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[chicken pickin]

Great pictures sol2go. The color range is amazing, especially seeing the range in the older pullet picture.

 

[ChicKat]

2 Cents about Crests, and we can talk later too

...typically all crested breeds have cranial hernias. The Legbar will be the first straight comb crested breed accepted into the APA, so this is a new area for the APA. While a breed should probably all have the same skulls, it's not something that would be included in a standard because they will not be examining skulls. The straighter combed birds are the ones with smoother skulls, and they will most likely score better, so ultimately I think the smoother skulls will continue forward.

A tuft is not a usual term in chicken breed descriptions for the APA, excerpt for in the case of ear-tufts," A feathered protuberance on each side of the neck..." Page 8, APA SOP 2010. The Tufted Roman Goose is the only breed of fowl to really include the tuft on the top of the head.
Crests, "An almost globular tuft of feathers on the top of the head of some fowl and waterfowl...Full expression is partially dependent on the "knob" which is a term most generally used to describe the bony structure and mass of tissue and follicles from which the crest grows." Page 7, APA SOP 2010

The current proposed shape section is pretty accurate for the female, but I could see re examining the male. Basically we're dealing with a partial expression in both sexes.

Just a reminder, if these new varieties are going to be varieties of the Legbar they will need to use the same shape section as the cream variety.

Thanks KP---

Yes they will need to have the same shape (body type) as the Cream Variety - We have built in 'issues' if ever a Gold Legbar or a Silver Legbar standard were to become appropriate - since those varieties are uncrested.

There is in my mind a problem with the wording that the crest is 'almost globular' and that it originates in what is somewhat a description of a cranial hernia. I'm not sure that we want cranial hernia --because it could preclude straight combs. Hence the idea that the head feathering may more accurately be described as a tuft rather than a 'crest' - since I don't think globular is the aim - or quite a fit with the current Draft.

Good insights - and let's table Crests to farther down stream - and start looking at 'feet' and legs....because there are some difference there too-- but I think everyone will agree on yellow for color -

 

[ChicKat]

Really good work everyone.

I went to the post I did about Crests - to say that probably Crests need to be tabled. At Saturday's state fair I saw highly barred, faintly barred, the typical dark crest, purely chestnut colored crest - and I know that we are now seeing crests that are very white-looking with barring -
Plus the difference of cranial hernia and the effect that will have on the males comb - probably needs to be addressed, - In my mind a breed wouldn't have herniated craniums and non- in the same variety would it? We need some delving.

So then I lined out what I had written so it would still be there for reference - and said maybe we should do bottom up rather than top down - and when I hit submit - it all seems to have disappeared?? maybe a line through is a way to delete a post, which wasn't my intention - or maybe it is here and I'm not just seeing it?

I suspect that since there are a LOT of hens and pullets that have dark crests - the newly written Varitey will include a dark crest so there will be a Standard to breed toward for those who prefer dark-crested females of the breed. Of course the white variety would have a white crest...

I'm in the twilight zone as to -- where the post went.... right now I'm not seeing it at all - but I did edit it.

But to refocus.

Great coloration pictures - and I really see from the wing shots that there is only gray there....including gray stippling. The wing shot I posted, if you open in a new tab or window -- is very warm-colored in the stippling as opposed to the cool colors.

 

[ChicKat]

so -- thinking of the new standard - bottom up - this time....

The legs will be yellow - but there is a piece of vagueness regarding the 'length'. Talking Saturday with Sam Brush of the APA -- he did say it would be nice if there were fewer generalities and more specifics in the SOP - and that a lot of SOP wording is the same...so
I'm going to go to the Club's web page and lift "Lillian"


To my eye Lillian has short legs. She would also be a closer fit to the crele SOP we are developing because she lacks the gray that is so clearly shown in the photos Chicken pickin provided.

At this point in theory - Lillian would fall into the Crele Variety SOP. However there could be some influences here. One is her legs are such a bright orange-yellow, that there could have been a feed supplement that consequently influenced that wing and back plumage.... if the feed is the factor - then it wouldn't be a different Variety. Think in a way of any silver or gold laced or penciled bird - and the only difference in those varieties is the coloration.

The standard calls for this for legs
Legs and Toes: Legs-- moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are medium length.

And I suppose this wouldn't be confusing for a judge. In the UK they prefer their chickens lower to the ground, so I have heard, and there this may be considered moderately long. Lillian may also be crouching in this picture. I doubt that there needs to be any changes to the wording in the draft SOP - and only an education to people raising the chickens - as to what a moderately long leg would be. However it does show the sliding categories and nuances that the judge must face. Some judges would like a very precise (no fudge factors) criteria. That said - the judge with an entire room full of chickens cannot parse out each word - but has to evaluate the entire chicken very quickly - and I suspect in a lot of ways that is what happened at the 'Nationals' in - was it 2012 when Lillian won in UK. --

Bottom line I think that the new Varities SOPs for Crele, White and any others that are on the horizon will be identical to the existing in both coloration and 'type' for the legs....- but that breeders need to educate ourselves about what is moderately long? Would this be an example? I think not.

So let's see some chicken feet and legs - for people who have what they consider could be a Crele Lebar, if you have whites you could put some leg shots in -- and of course if you have the 'true cream' then show some legs and we can see if there would be a varietal difference in the legs color for the variety.

 

[chicken pickin]

For this variety to be called crele, will the hens require more barring showing up through out them?

 

[ChicKat]

For this variety to be called crele, will the hens require more barring showing up through out them?

That is a really good observation - and it may be 'yes' - The importance of barring is autosexing -- BUT -- I don't think that the amount of barring is under our control. Hens have only one gene for barring - so it is an IS barred or Isn't barred.

Another call for photos-- amounts of barring.

For mine there is definite barring on the underside - and the tails have faint barring -- In that wing shot I put up -- I really had to LOOK for the barring because it is so faint. Were more barring to be a requirement - I wonder how it cold be under the control of the person raising the chickens. I almost think that the barring we show now is what occurs with our combination of e+ and B/ -- I wonder if some of the other more barred-looking effects are under the control of some of the other genetics that haven't as yet been included in the CL.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

For this variety to be called crele, will the hens require more barring showing up through out them?

That was my point on the other thread. I personally dislike the more barred hens, it is what makes the legbar females different than normal crele because there is just a hint of barring instead of obvious barring. Plus when we did crele OEGB and now crele phoenix bantams, the chicks always have head spots. The cockerel down is lighter but not always. In terms of the APA, people will see the name crele and compare them to the old english. And if the term crele is to be used, why not refer to the cream birds as cream crele? It would have saved tons of time to do the standard because in theory, they could have just used the SOP description for crele and changed the terms like gold/red to cream.

 

[ChicKat]

That was my point on the other thread. I personally dislike the more barred hens, it is what makes the legbar females different than normal crele because there is just a hint of barring instead of obvious barring. Plus when we did crele OEGB and now crele phoenix bantams, the chicks always have head spots. The cockerel down is lighter but not always. In terms of the APA, people will see the name crele and compare them to the old english. And if the term crele is to be used, why not refer to the cream birds as cream crele? It would have saved tons of time to do the standard because in theory, they could have just used the SOP description for crele and changed the terms like gold/red to cream.

Hi FMP

is there any chance you could do a cut-and-paste of that standard here so we can start a comparison?

If genetically Wild Type plus Barring is crele - then the Cream Legbar is Cream Crele... Like you I don't like the appearance of the crele OEGB when compared to the Legbar's plumage patterning.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

This pullet is from a legbar rooster bred to a good light brown leghorn hen. As far as genes go, she is pure for everything that a legbar is and will breed as a legbar. The pattern here is a good example. It isn't a typical crele but it isn't a light brown either, it is a unique pattern to the legbar.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Hi FMP

is there any chance you could do a cut-and-paste of that standard here so we can start a comparison? 

If genetically Wild Type plus Barring is crele - then the Cream Legbar is Cream Crele...   Like you I don't like the appearance of the crele OEGB when compared to the Legbar's plumage patterning.

I think someone else posted it on the cream thread, I have been using my phone to access BYC and have been having issues copying text lately.