Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

That is a good point - AND raising your own, you know how they were raised. I have some here (not Legbar) That I think got a little feed - but were mostly expected to free range - and they are smaller than they should be. They started laying late, and for the longest time they looked more like pigeons than like chickens. Some of the same breed that I have had since two weeks old are big strapping juveniles -and I bet that they will come into lay before 8-months.

Long ago I got some legbars from Craig's list and I think they were really neglected during that juvenile grow out period - and they were late layers and lousy layers. IMO Cream Legbars should be performance birds.

But if you can pick and choose from her stock - it wouldn't hurt if you wanted to pick up a couple because I think it would almost be a wash cost-wise to raise a chick or to buy a started chicken - she will probably only just about break even if she gives them good feed. -- And you are 1/2 year ahead of where you would be otherwise. -- but you never never know-- you will have to trust your intuition -- there is always a risk of bringing new birds on the premises.


Regarding the SOP -- not sure exactly what you are looking for - but I can say that we recently heard from a plumage genetics expert in the UK who said that for his own personal preference he wouldn't want one that was lighter than the one in this picture:

So I see some definite chestnut on the wing, and I see some warm color in the saddle feathers - and if that is the light end....the you know you needn't go for the pure-white look that some thought was the only choice.

Hi All, when I was reading through the posts I didn't notice any comments about his wing bay/triangle being "gold"?
Does anyone else see that?

If he is considered double for cream, and shows a colorful wing bay…that works against our "tell" for cream vs gold roosters.

I have probably asked this before, but could red enhancers show up on the wing bay of a double cream rooster; which may be what we have considered to be gold?

Since I am catching up on quite a few posts, further back were some discussions on type especially as Legbars do or do not relate to Leghorns. I recall discussion at the Novato type evaluation to avoid some of the typical Leghorn features. For example, the rooster posted above has a nice low curve to his chest, which would be preferable. I think that shape also leans towards a fuller bodied, dual purpose breed which I believe the SOP includes (going to check now…)

 

[ChicKat]

Hi All, when I was reading through the posts I didn't notice any comments about his wing bay/triangle being "gold"?
Does anyone else see that?

If he is considered double for cream, and shows a colorful wing bay…that works against our "tell" for cream vs gold roosters.

I have probably asked this before, but could red enhancers show up on the wing bay of a double cream rooster; which may be what we have considered to be gold?

Since I am catching up on quite a few posts, further back were some discussions on type especially as Legbars do or do not relate to Leghorns. I recall discussion at the Novato type evaluation to avoid some of the typical Leghorn features. For example, the rooster posted above has a nice low curve to his chest, which would be preferable. I think that shape also leans towards a fuller bodied, dual purpose breed which I believe the SOP includes (going to check now…)

Yes, that particular rooster does defy the 'tell'.

I'm trying to remember now - exactly where the ultra-light look got originated - I think it was the CL police in the UK - and since there was no 'alternative' it kind of swung the pendulum far to the light. ETA when I open the picture of Angela Haynes and of Kevin Kerr in a new window to get full page, I see quite a lot of color in the cockerel's hackles. On the female that Kevin is holding - I see a very light crest.

Although I STRONGLY prefer the dark crest - -I'm beginning to be swayed that the light one is more in line with the SOP's intent. As I interpret it.

 

[chicken pickin]

Yes, that particular rooster does defy the 'tell'.

I'm trying to remember now - exactly where the ultra-light look got originated - I think it was the CL police in the UK - and since there was no 'alternative' it kind of swung the pendulum far to the light. ETA when I open the picture of Angela Haynes and of Kevin Kerr in a new window to get full page, I see quite a lot of color in the cockerel's hackles. On the female that Kevin is holding - I see a very light crest.

Although I STRONGLY prefer the dark crest - -I'm beginning to be swayed that the light one is more in line with the SOP's intent. As I interpret it.

Do you have a reason for strongly preferring the dark crest? Is it just that you personally prefer the looks in particular vs the light crest?

 

[ChicKat]

Do you have a reason for strongly preferring the dark crest? Is it just that you personally prefer the looks in particular vs the light crest?

I think it is that I do prefer that look, and the old 'not invented here' thing that one used to encounter when new ideas came along. I also prefer a trim/small crest -- and that seems to go more hand-in-hand with dark. i.e. - seems the pouffey ones are lighter. I did have a pullet that I sold at auction down the street - and she did well - she seemed to have a gray crest I suspect one cresting gene, had good color and size...but she didn't bother to lay very often. If I encounter one like that in future, and she is a good layer, I will probably hold on to her. (She was purchased as one of a trio and not hatched here)

I think it is a preference thing for sure -- and my introduction to CLs was all dark crested females -- so it was kind of defining. I think that if the lighter ones are truly more correct (Like Kevin's winner pictured above)--- I still have the option of keeping darks - it would just be points off at shows. Does that make any sense?

 

[sol2go]

I think it is that I do prefer that look, and the old 'not invented here' thing that one used to encounter when new ideas came along. I also prefer a trim/small crest -- and that seems to go more hand-in-hand with dark. i.e. - seems the pouffey ones are lighter. I did have a pullet that I sold at auction down the street - and she did well - she seemed to have a gray crest I suspect one cresting gene, had good color and size...but she didn't bother to lay very often. If I encounter one like that in future, and she is a good layer, I will probably hold on to her. (She was purchased as one of a trio and not hatched here)

I think it is a preference thing for sure -- and my introduction to CLs was all dark crested females -- so it was kind of defining. I think that if the lighter ones are truly more correct (Like Kevin's winner pictured above)--- I still have the option of keeping darks - it would just be points off at shows. Does that make any sense?

I suppose the dark crests might be a consideration for the alternative legbars...

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a great article on BYC by Ki4got. There are some interesting genetics points here that may be of interest.


https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/genetics-an-attempt-at-simplifying-the-complex

Here is an excerpt:

Dilute (Di) - dominant, dilutes red and gold pigments.

· Champagne Blond (Cb) - dominant, dilutes gold pigments.

· Inhibitor of Gold (ig) - recessive, changes gold pigments to yellow (lemon).

· Silver (S) - sex-linked incompletely dominant, turns red to white in roosters and turns brown to grey and lightens the salmon breast (when present) in hens.

 

[GaryDean26]

David Applegarth's foundation stock was:

- Two Cream Legbar Pullets that he hatched in 1987
- A Cream Legbar cockerel that he sourced in January of 1988 and
- A Cream x Gold Legbar cockerel that he sourced in January of 1988.

He tried breeding the Cream Cockerel to the Cream pullets but the mating failed so he breed the Cream Pullets to the Cream X Gold Cockerel and the Cream cockerel to a Auracana to start his line. I am not sure if the cockerel in this photo is Applrgarth's "Cream"his "Cream x Gold" or an F1 cockerel that he had breed in 1988 but his flock definately was not stable by 1988 and what you are seeing is a gold coloring on that cockerel.

 

[ChicKat]

David Applegarth's foundation stock was:

- Two Cream Legbar Pullets that he hatched in 1987
- A Cream Legbar cockerel that he sourced in January of 1988 and
- A Cream x Gold Legbar cockerel that he sourced in January of 1988.

He tried breeding the Cream Cockerel to the Cream pullets but the mating failed so he breed the Cream Pullets to the Cream X Gold Cockerel and the Cream cockerel to a Auracana to start his line. I am not sure if the cockerel in this photo is Applrgarth's "Cream"his "Cream x Gold" or an F1 cockerel that he had breed in 1988 but his flock definately was not stable by 1988 and what you are seeing is a gold coloring on that cockerel.

Seems to me, then he wouldn't have had it labeled as Cream Legbar! Otherwise, you are kind of implying he didn't know how to label a photo for a magazine publication. ;O)


One thing that is really interesting that you may have omitted, or that it hadn't been incorporated in the timeframe you cited is that he also had Cream Leghorns. The Punnett article on Cream mentions Cream Leghorns I believe, his results with them AND, the dead roosters lined up in the plate are cream.

 

[GaryDean26]

R.G. Punnett Isolated the Cream Gene into Brown Leghorns at the end of his formal research of the cream gene in the 1940's. In his publication in the Journal of Genetics on Cream Plumage he called these birds Brown Leghorns with a cream ground color, but they had crest and laid blue eggs so there were really just project birds and not SOP Leghorns.. They were crosses with the cream Legbars breed by Michael Please which is how the blue eggs an cresting was introduced into the pair shown of the London Dairy show in 1947.

Applegarth didn't ever have any Cream Leghorns but he did say that the Auracana hen that he borrowed to cross to the Cream Legbar cockerel had light hackles and that 100% of her offspring had the light hackles.

I however feel that it is safe to use the gold tones in the secondary flight feathers of the cockerels are one of the distinguishing colors from the cream variaty. That is one of the tells that Punnett listed in his publication on cream plumage and as far as I know it holds true.

My vote would be to use the gold tones in the alternative SOP for the non-cream Legbars.

 

[ChicKat]

This is an older post from Classroom in the Coop

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24327&page=4

#24359 - 04/27/09 10:11 AM​

Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Krys

Feather

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Minnesota
Brown Leghorn in UK is same as light brown leghorn in US. As Punnett will have meant e+.

I had cream brown leghorns. David Francis' birds from David Applegarth when re-creating Cream Legbars. I could not, with any certainty, distinguish the chicks from the gold based brown chicks. The expression seemed more varied in pullets varying from looking much like silver duckwing, though slightly browner in the body, to a warmer coloured bird looking cream in hackles & browner in body. Darker areas finely laced with cream. The breast did not seem affected. The males seemed more consistently coloured cream in neck & saddle hackles, shoulders chestnut, wing triangle cream. (same colour as in pic above).
Don't know if that helps.

It goes back to 2009 - but it seems that this person got some from David Applegarth's recreation of Cream Legbars--- but it sounds like not exactly Cream Legbars? However he gives some insight to the hackles, and the browner (rather than grayer) bodies. Not sure which above picture he is referring to.
Hi GaryDean,

I was referring to this post that said that David Applegarth was using cream brown Leghorns to recreate the Cream Legbars. So in our present day CLs there is probably some Cream brown-leghorns.

Punnet's article about cream does talk about Cream being developed and the photos are of (dead) cockerels from his study.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf

I apologize for the way I wrote -- using the pronoun HE and HIS -- -Applegarth had Cream Leghorns -- and seemingly according to Krys used them to recreate Cream Legbars. Krys got her Cream Leghorns from David Francis who got them from David Applegarth.

Different He -- Punnett studied Cream Plumage in Leghorns -- hence the article about Cream Plumage and the Leghorns and the Leghorn feathers in photos.