Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

So, if I understand you correctly, there is no crele, they are all the same?

According to me they are all the same .. (but what do I know? ;O) ) -

Seriously, the word crele genetically according to David Scriviner who is brilliant IMO - in his book Exhibition Poultry Keeping 2005 - page 93. " When the barring gene is applied to the Wild Type pattern, the 'Crele' variety is produced and the barring on Columbian patterin combination is seen on Rhodebars, one of the autosexing breeds" This is from the chapter 'Some Poultry Genetics' and the paragraph THE BARRING GENE. This book is worth-its-weight-in-gold IMO...btw. Just noticed he answered a question that we had regarding the white earlobes, saying that the white earlobes will redden with age, wind, sun exposure etc. and the older bird who has earlobes turned is still a good breeder, just not a good shower if it was a correct bird at around 1-year old.

So that opens the door wide to what colors are 'crele' - Everything based on the Wild Type (aka duckwing) - so Silver Duckwing, Gold Duckwing and Red Duckwing.






So crele is actually a pattern not a color.

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a picture BTW from Australia of Silver Welbars

Welsumer X BPR - showing how "gold" silver can look. also, some writers have noted that barring expresses differently on different breeds. Hence the difference with the above Welbars to a Cream Legbar and the differences in the Old English Game Bantams OEGB - where 'crele' is a recognized variety. I believe in addition the people that have them prefer their crele based on red duckwing and super melaninize. (is that a word?)

 

[ChicKat]

One more word on 'crele'

all these examples are Crele Leghorns. The upper left corner is a gold crele Leghorn and the lower right corner is a silver crele Leghorn.
When I first did this it was for the sake of discussing colors or more specifically the range of cream.

This was deveIoped from a picture of a silver crele and a picture of a gold crele. I superimposed one picture on the other in Photoshop layers and I took the slider of opacity between the silver and the gold. So VISUALLY, the one that says it is 50% gold is an equal mix of the plumage colors.

I now think that we wouldn't want the Cream Legbar to be either a match to the gold or to the silver Leghorn plumage appearance. The gold Legbar matching plumage appearance to the gold leghorn - yes, The silver Legbar matching appearance to the Silver Leghorn - yes....

 

[caychris]

Sorry if my vocabulary usage was incorrect and caused confusion I am rather new at this.

I wasn't trying to be authoritative in any fashion I was just trying to be sure I understood the issue
Im probably in agreement that what we have been discussing is not a new variety of Legbar. Though there may be reason to consider the different methods used to produce CLB today as actually being different varieties of Legbar with each trying to claim the name Cream

Since the genetics for the CLB are a bit muddled as to which breeds are used to produce which traits (most of which are not shown in the cage) then I think having a broader standard for the paint job is probably the way to go.

I think in general the definition of CLB standard needs to be clearer first before one can begin to extend selective breeding of the misses to its own variety.

Sorry if Im mixing up terms again.

 

[ChicKat]

@ChicKat In my opinion I do not believe the female crest light vs dark would be a differentiating quality enough to consider it a different variety. When I look at my females both light crested and dark crested the only difference I am noting is that the darker crested females have the same dark gray crest feathers only they are lacking the cream edging, also these dark crest females have darker hackles (more gray mixed in with the cream). To me that is something that should be worked on maybe even potentially culled since to me it seems to be a quality issue not a different variety.

Good!

The idea of having one variety (of CL - rather than having a "more colorful" and "less colorful" that are otherwise identical and in the areas that cross over impossible to tell apart) is a stronger position for APA acceptance IMO. Those who see it differently please chime in.

I think that there will be differences of opinion or better word preference in the Cream Legbars.

IMO also it is a very recognizable breed right NOW.

One of my professors in college talked about how people have different taste - some like coffee with cream, some like black, some like sugar etc. - and it is all just taste. One group doesn't need to enjoy their coffee more by changing the other group to match them. Although if you don't stock cream and sugar in your household and someone you offer a cup of coffee needs them -- well...

According to what I have read, and the reason people are ASKING is that to breed well requires a target - or call it a vision of where you want to end up. It seems that we didn't have that, or when it came up - suggested to be rather Unlike the Cream Legbars that are more familiar - (try google, or go to feathersite etc.)--- that the breed morphed. It is one thing to fine tune...e.g. More cream color in the crest would make for a more correct CL ' and another thing to adamantly exclude people from the breed. Were the exclusion based on sound science that would be one thing, but I think it wasn't. (Can you tell I have had a couple of friends chased away from the breed and thouroughly divested of CLs because they were told their birds were gold?) One could say that if someone were truly interested in the breed - they would stick with the breed regardless of comments by others - but some folks don't have that wiring.

 

[ChicKat]

Sorry if my vocabulary usage was incorrect and caused confusion I am rather new at this.

I wasn't trying to be authoritative in any fashion I was just trying to be sure I understood the issue
Im probably in agreement that what we have been discussing is not a new variety of Legbar. Though there may be reason to consider the different methods used to produce CLB today as actually being different varieties of Legbar with each trying to claim the name Cream

Since the genetics for the CLB are a bit muddled as to which breeds are used to produce which traits (most of which are not shown in the cage) then I think having a broader standard for the paint job is probably the way to go.

I think in general the definition of CLB standard needs to be clearer first before one can begin to extend selective breeding of the misses to its own variety.

Sorry if Im mixing up terms again.

I really appreciate your insights -- it's a comfort to know that I'm not the only person on earth who slips up with the vocabulary of chickening.

Having a broader standard for the paint job - would not only include more people - it would provide a larger gene pool for the breed. It is so easy to loose sight of the more subtle but more important things about CL which are 'type' -- Type doesn't get enough attention IMO. I think in someways, the rooster gets kudos because of his looks - and that draws attention to the breed. Also - since autosexing is so spectacularly cool and the breed has a number of advantages, blue eggs for example - a lot of us newcomers were drawn to the breed from the start. The 'showing professionals/competiton focused people' in the Poultry showing world would select breeds from the APA SOP to be able to win big when they show if that was their interest - and the 'three hens in the backyard only' people would select sex-links. CL is a niche for someone who wants the best of both worlds.

 

[caychris]

I really appreciate your insights -- it's a comfort to know that I'm not the only person on earth who slips up with the vocabulary of chickening.

Having a broader standard for the paint job - would not only include more people - it would provide a larger gene pool for the breed. It is so easy to loose sight of the more subtle but more important things about CL which are 'type' -- Type doesn't get enough attention IMO. I think in someways, the rooster gets kudos because of his looks - and that draws attention to the breed. Also - since autosexing is so spectacularly cool and the breed has a number of advantages, blue eggs for example - a lot of us newcomers were drawn to the breed from the start. The 'showing professionals/competiton focused people' in the Poultry showing world would select breeds from the APA SOP to be able to win big when they show if that was their interest - and the 'three hens in the backyard only' people would select sex-links. CL is a niche for someone who wants the best of both worlds.

I start from the 3 hens in my back yard perspective but I have discovered that my backyard chickens have rekindled the love I had of birds when I was raising pigeons when I was young and breeding them for show qualities even if I never do show fills a need. Unfortunately the 3 breeds I fell in love with all happen to be very difficult (Delaware, CLB and Pita Pinta)

 

[chambe94]

Just to add to the confusion :
I was just thinking about the fact that in laced polish hens,their crests start out as white on the edges and black in the center. After their first molt they switch to white in the center with black on the edges (like the rest of their feathers).

Had anyone noticed a change in crest color or pattern in Legbars girls as they age?

 

[ChicKat]

Just to add to the confusion

:
I was just thinking about the fact that in laced polish hens,their crests start out as white on the edges and black in the center. After their first molt they switch to white in the center with black on the edges (like the rest of their feathers).

Had anyone noticed a change in crest color or pattern in Legbars girls as they age?

Hi chamber94 -
That is so interesting -- now I am going to have to go out there and google laced polish..

Yes, I have seen a crest change related to age (molts I guess) The crest on my 3-year-old female has more evident light bars than when she was younger. The crest on my 3-year-old male has more white...like older humans when their hair turns gray when they are older.!

 

[ChicKat]

I start from the 3 hens in my back yard perspective but I have discovered that my backyard chickens have rekindled the love I had of birds when I was raising pigeons when I was young and breeding them for show qualities even if I never do show fills a need. Unfortunately the 3 breeds I fell in love with all happen to be very difficult (Delaware, CLB and Pita Pinta)

So great that you are getting back into your love for birds. Heard a quote that chickens are the nearest living relative to the T-rex. LOL

And as far as selecting difficult breeds, well if we knew then what we know now... we would probably do the exact same thing we did... I know I would. LOL