Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

You are asking for comments on his color, correct? Not that he looks like a Roadrunner, or anything else on type?

Yes, definitely, I would like to know how people see his coloration. Seems that there is not much weigh-in from people who prefer the light - their comments would be appreciated also.

I would say he looks fast.

you could say that again... Meeep! Meep.

 

[ChicKat]

Comments about the coloration of this image would be appreciated:

 

[ChicKat]

Here is my reply from Australia:

Terry Hill

6:00 AM (1 hour ago)

​

to me

Hi Kathy,


I have talked to the expert on Plymouth Rocks here in Australia.

His name is Andy Vardy the originator of Backyard Poultry an Aussie icon website which advertisers use before all others.

Andy says that they are treated as two different varieties and are not shown or bred together. He says that the US has lost the strain that produces the dark variety but that we in Australia have managed to preserve both strains and exhibit both the dark and light males and females. He also says that a group of Plymouth Rock experts visited here and were amazed at the quality of both Plymouth Rocks and Rhode Island Reds, saying that they were better than in the US.


I hope that this helps. Let me know if you need more.

Cheers
ETA:

• If our CLs are different enough - that would confirm a need for two varieties.
• the UK has both 'looks' of CL in the same variety - hence different appearance between 2013 and 2014 winners.
• It also confirms that the one strain of BPR 'look' has been lost to the USA, and that was the concern about loosing the 'alternative' (to the Jill Rees look) CL.

 

[ChicKat]

Summary Time! -

first - one of our participants on this thread, and CL Club member has summarized what Walt has recently commented in this thread and I appreciate the help and contribution, and - will post it in the Club's Clubhouse. Years ago when we were putting together the SOP -Walt was there to help and guide us and Anne Norman collected what Walt has said - so it is in the Clubhouse under "Walt's Words" -- this will go in that category (save combing through the thread.)

For those of you who may be new or unfamiliar, Walt is an APA judge, successful fowl raiser, drives a race care around for fun (the secret is out ) - Gives generously of his time to Poultry people, is the Chairman of the APA committee to accept new breeds to the organization - and has been an advisor to the Cream Legbar Club since the early days - of all of us - he's the one who truly knows.... so that's why we hang on to his words....

Post # Post

654​

As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different.

664​

The color description should match the appearance of the actual bird.....not so much what genes are used to create the bird. When the CL are accepted, the APA will use your description of "Cream" and that can be put in the glossary as well. As far as judges.....the Legbar Club should start a campaign to educate judges to the CL's color. The type is Leghorn so they should not have a problem with that part.
It will hurt the acceptance if at the APA qualifying meet the birds look to different. Slight color shades would not be a problem, but if they look like they are each a different color pattern that will hurt. I have seen about four color 'looks" in these...both in person and here online.

669​

Yes, short backs are part of the problem. I just noticed something else with the British Standard. Their Leghorns are quite different than our Leghorns in type, so saying the body should look like a Leghorn can be a problem....... Since I don't think these will ever look like a APA leghorn, we night want to be low key on the comparison and just go with the description that fits the birds type. The British description of the Legbars type seems to cover the look we have here with the CL's. The last picture of the male here shows that there is not a break of severe angle to the tail. It has a gradual sweep to the tail. That looks more like the Leghorns in both countries.

718​

t is always better to have more than 50 birds in the event some are DQ'd or do not score high enough. I am posting a qualifying meet report. This is the only one I can find and it unfortunately is hand written, but you can see the comments. A numerical score is not used these days.

728​

Do you ever wonder why geneticists don't agree on everything?...and why they can't make good birds? I have only seen one geneticist talk the talk and walk the walk....most of it is talk. That would be Fred Jeffrey. He published several books.

731​

This is just my opinion, but it is based on 50 years of doing this at a level that some would say is successful.
You folks can talk about it, you can teach it and you can argue about it, but the bottom line is that people don't know what they are dealing with in terms of the genetic makeup of their birds. Some have had these for a good while now, but it takes several years to find out what these birds are really carrying. You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point.
At the qualifying meet the birds entered only need to look like the description given to the APA. The APA does not care what genes they are carrying as long as they reproduce 50% correct....with the normal variations that any color pattern would have. There will be a great need for the education of the public and especially the judges. Judges respect breed clubs that promote their breeds. They have no problem learning about a breed from the people that breed them. .....99% of them anyway.....and I can guarantee that whoever the judge is that will do the qualifying meet that they will be easy to work with. If it is somewhere I can get to, it will probably be me doing the judging.
I will help you in any way I can. The timeline is up to you folks and I am glad that you are taking your time and trying to have your Standard correct rather than rush and have problems.
Good job to all who have participated!

739​

It would be better to have more than 5. Five years is a long time and things sometimes alter our course. You don't want to start over. You need to place the meet in an area where you have good support.

740​

This color pattern will naturally have more color variations than most other color combinations. Usually but not always the males are easier to get the proper color than females. The judging will allow for some variations at the qualifying meet. They should look similar though.

776​

I agree.
? most of the breeds in the APA Standard are composite breeds as are the CL's. Some of the best Delaware chickens now are the result of going back and recreating them using New Hampshires and Plymouth Rocks.

798​

That is correct. If you sign an APA voucher swearing that you raise these for 5 years and they produce 50% true and they don't......well that is cheating. if you don't tell people that you are selling them a genetic mess that will not produce the birds the customer expects ......that is cheating. If you have a hybrid that looks like a CL and enter it in a show that is not cheating, but you will rarely do well and would probably only have one or two specimens that would be showable until everything is genetically "fixed".

ETA - this is now in the CL Club's 'clubhouse' - at the bottom of the work done by Anne Norman...it is in the Category 'Proposed Standard of Perfection' and the item second from the bottom - Walt's Words. so the 2012 SOP activity assistance from Walt isn't lost/buried in a thread - and you don't have to peel through the whole thread.

 

[1muttsfan]

Chickat, as far as color in your picture -

The grass is a very pleasing green. I like the brown gate as a contrast, and the color is very uniform.

OK as far as the rooster, to me his hackles and saddle appears very pale cream, but I don't see any chestnut in the shoulder, looks like just a more golden color - possibly just an artifact of the lighting. His legs have good color.

 

[fowlman01]

Here is my reply from Australia:

Terry Hill

6:00 AM (1 hour ago)

​

​

to me

Hi Kathy,


I have talked to the expert on Plymouth Rocks here in Australia.

His name is Andy Vardy the originator of Backyard Poultry an Aussie icon website which advertisers use before all others.

Andy says that they are treated as two different varieties and are not shown or bred together. He says that the US has lost the strain that produces the dark variety but that we in Australia have managed to preserve both strains and exhibit both the dark and light males and females. He also says that a group of Plymouth Rock experts visited here and were amazed at the quality of both Plymouth Rocks and Rhode Island Reds, saying that they were better than in the US.


I hope that this helps. Let me know if you need more.

Cheers
ETA:

• If our CLs are different enough - that would confirm a need for two varieties.
• the UK has both 'looks' of CL in the same variety - hence different appearance between 2013 and 2014 winners.
• It also confirms that the one strain of BPR 'look' has been lost to the USA, and that was the concern about loosing the 'alternative' (to the Jill Rees look) CL.

The light and dark version of the BPR is still alive and well here in he USA. It is not seperated into two varieties, but it is a naturally occurring color variation. Anyone that breeds BPR's will have light and dark barred birds at some point. The APA had both light and dark versions in the Standard, but folded them into one variety early on.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

The light and dark version of the BPR is still alive and well here in he USA. It is not seperated into two varieties, but it is a naturally occurring color variation. Anyone that breeds BPR's will have light and dark barred birds at some point. The APA had both light and dark versions in the Standard, but folded them into one variety early on.

Walt

That's good to know....and just to be certain that is beyond the male/female differences right? Seems like IMO - both 2013 and 2014 'looks' for CL could be one variety.

do light/dark BPRs compete against each other in the same show? (too many questions?) Thanks!

 

[fowlman01]

That's good to know....and just to be certain that is beyond the male/female differences right? Seems like IMO - both 2013 and 2014 'looks' for CL could be one variety.

do light/dark BPRs compete against each other in the same show? (too many questions?) Thanks!

The color of the BPR looks different between the females and the males because of the width of barring .....with the females looking darker than the males as a rule. The light and dark barring is most noticeable in the male. Here in the US they compete against each other since there is no seperate variety for light or dark. I did very well with a dark male BPR male several years ago and will try to find a picture of him.

Walt

 

[KendyF]

Comments about the coloration of this image would be appreciated:

I will take a shot, and then expect to be corrected. It will be a decent test... His Saddle and Hackles are a close match, and definitely to my eye look Cream. I can't tell if any of his tail feathers are actually white, but near the top some of them do not have great barring. (Is that a thing) To me he looks like what a lot of people are working towards. Really from this shot that is about all I can tell. I will look forward to other comments.

 

[ChicKat]

I will take a shot, and then expect to be corrected. It will be a decent test... His Saddle and Hackles are a close match, and definitely to my eye look Cream. I can't tell if any of his tail feathers are actually white, but near the top some of them do not have great barring. (Is that a thing) To me he looks like what a lot of people are working towards. Really from this shot that is about all I can tell. I will look forward to other comments.

Spot on on the white tail feathers. It is allowed in the SOP - and some people don't like them - in my flock, they are the first ones that fall out in the molt - or they just fall out in the pen...so it is a look that comes and goes-- seriously.

to my eye the cream is a more definite cream, and contrasted with the white in the tail, and the white parts of the wing triangle...there is a difference.

I agree with 1muttsfan that the green may be influencing the 'look' -- just as the green background influenced the look of chicken Pickin's birds -- and the cream really popped when the bird was standing in snow. I kind of say if the earlobe is white, and the hackles match the earlobe, then the hackles are white. Sam Brush mentioned in Dallas last year that he wanted to see the white earlobe stand out-- and that would be more likely with a bird like the 2014. A good goal for all of us to have those enamel white earlobes.