Do some people think free range = no food?

[Tala]

Quote:
Uh, plus some of us have other jobs to do besides sit at home with the .22.....I mean the morgtage won't pay itself off in raccoon pelts (unfortunately!!)
So I don't consider building predator-deterring pens to be lazy

That's what I'm talking about. Spending money to replace your time. Farming half the time or as a hobby an paying out money to get away with it. Most farmers are that now. To live effectively off the land it has to be your full time job. I know lots of old timers that still raise there livestock an live off the land without buying feed, lumber an wire an they get there bills paid. But it takes to much work for people now a days. Sure the new way works but its way less effecent than the old way. You are also subject to marked variations. I know I would hate to someone that is buying there feed to get by if the local feed mill burned down or couldn't get a grain shipment for some reason..

Well I still don't call it LAZY!

TO EFFECTIVELY live off the land you have to have LAND in the first place! That does sorta cost money nowadays.
So what my parents aren't over the hill and I haven't inherited their land yet......I guess there were advantages to the average lifespan being what, 50 years tops? The kids you had at 32 could take over your property by the time they hit 20. No mortgage! wow what a deal! Guess what, I had to buy my own stinkin land so I have to work to pay the bills.....lazy I am not!!!

 

[SkyWarrior]

Quote:
That's what I'm talking about. Spending money to replace your time. Farming half the time or as a hobby an paying out money to get away with it. Most farmers are that now. To live effectively off the land it has to be your full time job. I know lots of old timers that still raise there livestock an live off the land without buying feed, lumber an wire an they get there bills paid. But it takes to much work for people now a days. Sure the new way works but its way less effecent than the old way. You are also subject to marked variations. I know I would hate to someone that is buying there feed to get by if the local feed mill burned down or couldn't get a grain shipment for some reason..

Well I still don't call it LAZY!

TO EFFECTIVELY live off the land you have to have LAND in the first place! That does sorta cost money nowadays.
So what my parents aren't over the hill and I haven't inherited their land yet......I guess there were advantages to the average lifespan being what, 50 years tops? The kids you had at 32 could take over your property by the time they hit 20. No mortgage! wow what a deal! Guess what, I had to buy my own stinkin land so I have to work to pay the bills.....lazy I am not!!!

Easy there. I don't think you're lazy and I think Cowboy is talking about something else entirely.

I think Cowboy was talking exchanging time for money and not the need to pay for the land, but to be self-sufficient. My thought is that my time has a price -- and a high one. So much so that it's worth fencing. And at some point, it's better to exchange barter for something someone else can do better. I'm sure you didn't mine the lead for your bullets or cast the barrel for your .22, Cowboy. I'm sure you didn't solder the computer or stamp the silicon chips to make your computer you work on.

At some point, you've got to decide when to pay folks for their labor versus doing it yourself. Lazy? That's his term and one I would disagree with. No matter how much we'd like to think of ourselves as self-sufficient, at some point we barter for things we can't make or don't have. Humans have been doing this since the caveman days when Og discovered his buddy made better spear points than he could ever hope to, but Og was the better hunter. So Og traded meat for spear points. Duh!

Arguably, I don't think it makes you a better person that you sit and wait for your dogs to bark so you can shoot a predator. I'd rather keep the predator out with a fence -- the predator will decide to go over to Cowboy's ranch and he can shoot it, assuming an eagle doesn't take his Pug for a snack.

I hunt, but I don't run around barefoot and with a stone knife to kill deer -- I use a rifle because it's easier and quite honestly, more humane. Hunting is tough enough as it is.

Now, as for Tala's comment -- she's right in one respect. This is the real world with mortgages and the very real need for money. Most of us don't have the luxury of time to sit and wait with a rifle to shoot predators -- we have very real needs to keep the financial wolves from our doors. In order to live off the land, you have to have some way to pay for it. And ranching and farming, while ideal in many respects, is subject to the vagaries of weather, predators, disease and market prices.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Quote:
I want to comment on the average life span. It means, on average, how long can a baby be expected to live from the day it is born. If you were born in the Middle Ages, about 25% of the children were dead before age 5. That tore the averages all to pieces. If you made it through the childhood diseases, you had a pretty good chance to see your grandkids and probably a greatgrandkid or two. You also had a great chance to see some of them die. I can't remember what the average life span was, probably in the mid to upper 40's. That means a lot were living into their 60's or longer to bring the average up that high.

I'm using the Middle Ages because I remember the 25% statistic. The same thing happened in more modern times. People who depended on their kids to work the land made up for so many kids dying young by having a lot to help with the farm work, but inheriting the land did not quite work the way you depict it. Usually the one kid that would inherit the land lived with his/her parents and took care of them in their old age.

Lets use my father's family as an example. His father, my grandfather, was born in the late 1800's and lived off the land much as Rebel described. He died at age 85. My grandmother died one week before her 92nd birthday. They were undoubtedly kept alive longer than in the Middle Ages by advances in medicine, but my grandfather did not have his first stroke until age 72. My grandmother was even older before she had serious medical problems.

They had 10 children. Three died in early childhood. In the hills of Appalachia in the early 1900's, a lot of kids died young. On my mother's side, 3 out of 9 died very young. But 7 of the 10 on my father's side did not die in early childhood. One died in her 70's. The rest made it at least to their mid-80's or well into their 90's. Two are still alive. Again, medical advances enable them to live this long, but most did not have serious medical problems until they were around retirement age or older. I ran some rough numbers and the death of the three in childhood took almost 30 years off their average life span. The youngest son raised his family while living with my grandfather and took care of them in their old age. His kids had families of their own well before my grandparents died.

I'm not going to get into the other discussion on lifestyle. Different perspectives from different folks. I agree the cost of land is a major factor, but it always has been, even when Dad paid $5,000 for 72 acres many decades ago, then paid it off by farming. He did not have to get a job until his kids started school and he needed cash to pay for clothing and lunches, but that is a different thread. That same land is assessed for about $150,000 today and still only has about 4 acres flat enough to plow.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

I'm sorry you don't like the term "lazy" but when you trade your money to have more time for other things then that's what it is. An I didn't say I didn't do it to. I have caged birds to. We are talking about weather you can free range chickens an not buy them feed. You can but you have to be out there putting your time in to protecting them so they can find there food. My years losses was one duck to a raccoon by the way.

As for buying land, most people have to buy it. That does not mean you cant work it an pay for it. There are people all over the country doing just that. Its a lifestyle choice. Land is still selling for $1000 an acre or less in large parts of the country. Ive seen people buy woodland an sell the lumber to loggers for more than the land cost. Don't mistake your choice for the only one that works. I was a fireman for 13 years. I farmed around that. Now I dont.

As for me, I for the most part do the necessity my self. Things I cant do without. My laptop I bought but then I don't need it. I did build my other computers from stuff in the dump. My router an web server were made by me. I also write the code for each page my self. Not needed but if I can then why pay someone to do it. Most of my guns are black pouder so yes I can make my bullets too. Most of the stuff I do is to prove it can still be done without money.

Now the birds I have in a cage are for breeding ,hatching(on the website) an selling. I have more than one breed so they are in a cage. I buy food for them but the others have to live off the land. Now I've seeded in with good grasses an planted grapes, apples, bananas, pomegranates an bamboo to help them. I work to make my expenses less. I don't work to afford more expenses.

 

[SkyWarrior]

Hey rebelcowboy

I think that most people who free range don't go to the extent you do. Most people I know out here turn their chickens out when they go to work and come home expecting to have all accounted for. They don't plant stuff for their chickens to eat and expect for them to get nutrition from dried up fields.

Basically, I don't believe they do the work you do and I think their animals suffer for it. I believe that good fences keep my animals safe and I do a lot of work to keep them healthy. Lazy? Maybe by your definition, but I'm not bothered. There are many things I do that are trade offs that I am comfortable with.

I'm willing to concede that you do free ranging right, but many do it wrong. Out here there's not enough nutritional value in the area I live, so I feed what I can.

And while you do make your own bullets, I bet you don't mine your own lead.

Actually this has been a fun discussion and I've enjoyed talking with you. Don't agree with everything you say, but I see your points.

 

[awesomefowl]

Mine are "pastured" in the backyard, no fences, but they get fed in the morning and at night.

 

[Beekissed]

I believe you are right...most people don't go all the way towards free ranging and then complain bitterly when it doesn't work. They like the idea of birds ranging freely and happily on sun splashed lawns...but don't provide for protection while they are doing so.

Free ranging, IMO, doesn't take the extra work needed to keep runs and coops cleaned out and dry...now I will freely admit that I am too lazy to do all those shenanigans to have chickens. I would not be building The Rock so no one could get in or out~I just don't want eggs badly enough for that.

I do, however, take the time to overseed my land with clover and more delectable forage for the birds, I do provide adequate protection in the form of two wonderful dogs, I do put up perimeter fencing to keep birds from straying into the roads. I do grow them pumpkins in my garden for supplemental feed that also provides intestinal parasite relief. I do make my own unpastuerized vinegar to add to their water. I do make sure they have adequate places to duck into to avoid predation from above. I do build fences to protect my garden from the chickens.

There are all forms of lazy...some call them shortcuts or just plain expediency. I love the easy care of free ranging but I also know that I have worked hard to provide that atmosphere. Others work hard to provide a locked down environment for their birds as they have no way of free ranging effectively. Whose to say what is lazy, what is not?

 

[amyrains]

what happened to just having chickens for FUN and loving the time it takes to care for them? i did nt get chickens for the MONEY i could make from them but for the learning and work that it teaches my 3 kids. my chickens free range during the day and have a nice place to sleep at night for the safety of them and so ill will feel good about the living conditions....not because we are lazy because both free range and caged chickens require LOTS of care and time....but thats what we want to do! and we LOVE the time and effort it takes!

 

[Beekissed]

Well, hon, some folks don't have the luxury of time and money spent on fun.

I must admit that I enjoy my chickens also and feel they are an excellent learning experience for children....but in the real world there are many people who have added chickens to their lives in order to provide supplemental food for their families. Fun is a great side effect of keeping chickens but fun is not the reason I got chickens.

I'm a single mother with a pretty stressful job so having fun spending more time that I could use elsewhere is not a reality for me. Chickens are a fun food project to be sure...but I try to make all my efforts in that direction require LESS time, not more.

 

[amyrains]

i agree 100% not all have the time or the money to think of raising chickns as FUN.....but why is one way better or worse than the other? it doesnt really matter how or why you have chickens or if they free range of are caged...it still is WORK! for a person to say free range is for the lazy or caged is for the lazy just doesnt seem right. we all have chickens for different reasons...if i was trying to make a living off my chickens i might try to save money in areas...or if i was single i would need to do some thing to make caring for them take "less time" (my husband works out of town so i am by my self 90% of the time)...but all the bickering back and forth about what takes more time and who is lazy in how they pick to care for there chickens is CRAZY to me!