does anybody know how lemon cuckoo is carried in orpingtons?

[Old Rando]

loveourbitds, you might note that when I write the term homozygous I then put in parenthesis two copies, I also do the same with the heterozygous with one copy in parenthesis. This is to make sure the term is understood and someone that is unfamiliar with it might learn. After reading the two articles that you had links to I see your confusion. Those are two very poorly written and inaccurate articles. If you compare them you will see their information on sex-link breeding doesn't match. I have written nothing in my previous posts that wasn't correct.

The barring gene expressed on a white feather is still white. A white bird carry one or two copies of barring can have it expressed with an outcross depending on the color genetics of the other bird.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/261208/sex-linked-information I think this thread will be very helpful. You can choose to ignore everything I write if you wish , but you should always believe everything Tadkerson writes about genetics.

 

[donrae]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/261208/sex-linked-information I think this thread will be very helpful. You can choose to ignore everything I write if you wish , but you should always believe everything Tadkerson writes about genetics.

I can't second that enough!!!

 

[loveourbirds]

i do agree with what your saying, im just trying to explain there are exceptions to the rules on barring and cuckoo genes; and lemon cuckoo orps are one of the exceptions. as i mentioned before im not an expert in genes, it just so happened that a friend who knows genes well stopped by today and we had an hour's worth of conversation over this. he explained the exception to me, and im hoping i can explain it right. regardless of what way you believe the genes work - and he did mention that science and breeders do have different beliefs on this at times; the OP can breed the cross mentioned and get lemon cuckoo orpingtons. it will take a couple generations to get it right.

the exception is the gold gene, a buff orpington carries full copies of the golden gene. when diluted by a cuckoo gene, you cover the effects of 1 gold gene. this makes the lighter "lemon color", when the grandparents carry 6 copies of the barring gene; it over-dilutes the gold genes creating a nearly white chicken. he also explained that there are actually several different types of barring/crele/cuckoo genes. some are mutations of a silver gene, some are just a color inhibiting gene. they all basically work the same, and he wasnt sure what gene the lemon cuckoo's actually carried.

basically when you breed a double barred male to a barred female, then breed the offspring together you can dilute the buff gene so much that you create the light colored birds. the easiest way to correct the problem is to keep and breed some buff colored hens.

i think this satisfies both ends of our debate, and explains it in a way that the OP can work with.

 

[tadkerson]

Lemon cuckoo is a buff orpngton that is barred. The lemon phenotype (the birds color) is due to the interaction of 5 different genes. Will not go there.

lemon male x buff female= lemon females and dark lemon males

lemon male ( parent) x lemon female (offspring) = all lemon offspring


It would be best to not use information from either website. There are serious errors on both sites.

http://www.hpbaa.com/Genetics.html

I have emailed this individual and tried to correct the errors. He would not change anything.

For example; the website indicates there is a dominant black and a recessive black. This is not the case. There is an extended black gene at the E locus. The recessive black comes from research that did not incorporate the role of melanizers in chicken genetics. The chief melanizer is melanotic which can have different effects on males and females; depending on the E locus the birds carry.

Another example is the buff color in chickens; due to the interaction of the gold allele, dark brown, columbian, wheaten (light wheaten) and the mahogany gene.

There is not one gene that causes buff.


The other site says; http://www.diyseattle.com/chickens/barred-gene-use-in-chickens/

A barred male that carries only one barred gene when crossed to a barred female will produce about 25% barred cockerels. No, all the male offspring will be barred.

Chickens use the Z system for naming sex chromosomes. Males are ZZ and female are ZW.

And yes I know there is an incorrect label in my article but I can not correct the error.

Tim

 

[loveourbirds]

Lemon cuckoo is a buff orpngton that is barred. The lemon phenotype (the birds color) is due to the interaction of 5 different genes. Will not go there.

lemon male x buff female= lemon females and dark lemon males

lemon male ( parent) x lemon female (offspring) = all lemon offspring


It would be best to not use information from either website. There are serious errors on both sites.

http://www.hpbaa.com/Genetics.html

I have emailed this individual and tried to correct the errors. He would not change anything.

For example; the website indicates there is a dominant black and a recessive black. This is not the case. There is an extended black gene at the E locus. The recessive black comes from research that did not incorporate the role of melanizers in chicken genetics. The chief melanizer is melanotic which can have different effects on males and females; depending on the E locus the birds carry.

Another example is the buff color in chickens; due to the interaction of the gold allele, dark brown, columbian, wheaten (light wheaten) and the mahogany gene.

There is not one gene that causes buff.


The other site says; http://www.diyseattle.com/chickens/barred-gene-use-in-chickens/

A barred male that carries only one barred gene when crossed to a barred female will produce about 25% barred cockerels. No, all the male offspring will be barred.

Chickens use the Z system for naming sex chromosomes. Males are ZZ and female are ZW.

And yes I know there is an incorrect label in my article but I can not correct the error.

Tim

i knew what i was trying to say, but not saying it right - please correct this if wrong. the buff in orpingtons is the gold allele inherited in full from both parents. i know i kept saying buff, was meaning gold.

i have not gotten to this point yet, but ive had several other breeders tell me that they get the nearly white birds. am i wrong it thinking its the barred gene causing it because it dilutes the gold. i was told to order mine as buffs and lemon barred. i have just bred my first double barreds this year. or is it that someone has mixed something else in thats causing it? i admit im talking over my head here a bit. this is all more of a question than a statement.

 

[tadkerson]

buff birds must carry the recessive gold allele to be buff, The other option is to carry the silver allele. the silver allele would produce a white bird with some black in the tail.

the nearly white birds would be silver. The barring gene would show in any black feathers in the tail or wings.

Tim

 

[loveourbirds]

double checking to make sure i am understanding this right.

in lemon cuckoo orpingtons the barring is a result of the silver allele. an overdose of the silver allele over-rides the gold allele making the nearly white chickens. the barring is still there, just undefined for the most part.

and if this is true, you can cross the nearly white hen with a full buff rooster and yield 100% lemon cuckoo single barred?

 

[poultry kingdom]

Oh dear. No matter what, I have a lot to learn about chicken genetics. On the point of exceptions happening, I do know from sheep that unexplained things do happen. For instance, 2 black sheep should never be able to produce a white one because black is recessive. I had it happen that cross produced a white lamb. When I asked a professor of genetics about it, he said, every once in a while, something happens to show we really don't have genetics nailed down like we thought and color is the most variable with the most surprises. And this wasn't even an example of dilution genes but simple dominant/recessive. So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "odd" things appear from time to time in poultry where coloring is definitely much more complicated than sheep.

 

[loveourbirds]

there are several breeders out there who really dont understand genes. i am one of them - im learning as i go. when i add a new breed i research it through other breeders, most of them wont talk about genes. they will say, well you want to take this breast color and breed to this neck color. they will sometimes add and say, watch out for (whatever) in the cockerels and so on.

one of the best ways to start learning color crossing traits is to mess with old english game bantams. it wont necessarily teach you the genes, but you will be amazed at the colors that can be bred.

 

[3riverschick]

Oh dear. No matter what, I have a lot to learn about chicken genetics. On the point of exceptions happening, (snipped for brevity) So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "odd" things appear from time to time in poultry where coloring is definitely much more complicated than sheep.

Join the crowd. Poultry genetics is more complicated. Fortunately, there are a bunch of folk like Tad Akerson who really
know their stuff and are very willing to help.
I found 2 books so very helpful.
One is the American Poultry Association Standard of Perfection. (They are having a Christmas special right now).
The other is the Van Dort, Hancox and Friends book, "The Genetics Of Chicken Colours- The Basics". Just a truly
stunning book. Written in easy-to understand text, the 2nd half of the book is a pictorial encyclopedia of poultry colours.
The pictures captioned with the genetic formula for each color. The 1st hardback run is sold out but Van Dort has them
reprinted in small runs in softcover. You can order it here: http://chickencolours.com/
(sidenote: this website is translated. The title on the second book "Extremes" really should translate "Extremities".
This book covers the genetics of other characteristics in chickens excluding colour... combs, feet etc. It is not about
extreme chickens in the way we think of the word meaning "outlandish".
Best,
Karen
Waterford English Light Sussex
PA, USA