Does this look more like Marek’s or a vitamin deficiency?

[casportpony]

You need a food scale. With chickens, every gram counts. A human scale (lbs) isn't sensitive enough.

I agree.
5.0 pounds = 2268 grams
4.8 pounds = 2177 grams
91 gram loss = a 4% loss

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I guess it's good that I'm probably not dealing with Marek's then for the sake of the other birds but now I have no idea what the problem is

Marek's is awful, that's no doubt! But it doesn't wipe out entire flocks usually (20% perhaps of younger birds here).. Vaccinated birds are not welcome here to HIDE the disease since I breed my birds. But if it's of concern for you, then be sure to order vaccinated chicks ONLY and quarantine them while it takes effect!

I mentioned in my previous post.. aging is not pretty. And it might just be somethings not going right anymore. Many, many things that are not contagious or husbandry related do effect poultry.

Hang in there!

 

[casportpony]

I doubt this is how Marek's would present in a FIVE year old chicken..

Why?

 

[jolenesdad]

My first confirmed case of Mareks was a 3.5 year old hen. She is the only hen on my property that has died of specific Mareks like symptoms and she presented with standard 16ish week old chicken symptoms at such an old age. She had the visceral and neurological form of Mareks that is usually not the case in older birds. I’ve had multiple other deaths here and there that don’t look like Mareks, but that’s what they are.

So the odds are in your favor with her age, I still really think you still have to keep Mareks on the list and treat it as such, however that is. You *could* have a fairly mild strain that most of your birds are fighting off that in this situation presents with heavier symptoms like this in a much older bird like I did.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Why?

Great question! Thank you for not letting things slide.

Seemed like slow wasting was the MOST notable symptom in older birds.. Her weight sounds like fast decline more than slow wasting..

And before seeing the post #64 had not YET previously heard/seen such thing reported. If I could use more than one like button.. it was hard to decide whether to use the i or the wow.. but I went with wow! Thanks for sharing.. with SO many of us gathered together with lightening fast internet to share our experiences.. I cannot even fathom how much/fast knowledge and understanding is going to continue expanding!!

Hmm.. I WONDER NOW... I "breed for resistance" specifically to Marek's, recognizing it's an ugly disease and the challenges I face are many, part of the reason I participate of course is personal growth and learning..

SO, birds that never succumb as, lets call them juveniles.. are knowingly exposed (I had a dx, meaning definite carriers), and presumed to be showing SOME resistance.. COULD still have it rear it's ugly head at some time in the future.. IF their immune system is somehow otherwise compromised.. including things like old age.. ONE thing I had not yet considered as being as actual stress, aging!! Though I do think annual molt is a stress.

I was under the impression that the nerves being fully developed wouldn't have the same complications.. BUT this is NOT the SAME complication.. this is NOT the tumor that presses on the nerve & causes limping.. more like actual neurological degrade.. PLEASE forgive me.. what I'm typing is as it's working through my head.. to figure something out.. I *guess* I would expect to see some crop dysfunction.. causing nutrient debt, leading to the seizures.. in this instance perhaps.. and that's very likely WHY I thought no.

Back to the aging thing.. the neural network often diminishes with time/age depending partly on genetics and partly on environment.. Old people can't walk like they used to, lose their teeth, wear diapers, and so on.. what was I thinking?!

Please note five years old is not much for some birds.. but may be up there for others.. So I feel both ways for this gal.. she's likely considered senior.. though I want her to have lot's of life left.

So the odds are in your favor with her age, I still really think you still have to keep Mareks on the list and treat it as such, however that is.

This has been a bit of a revelation to me! Thank you, always.

According to the state vet at UC Davis in California.. Mdv is "ubiquitous" in poultry environments. And EVEN the birds that were vaccinated MAY still be (many guaranteed are) carrying the disease!

BUT even if it were a perfect storm of things that actually cause the illness/death... a necropsy *may* assign cause as.. ______.

Marek's, Covid, SARS.. name the flavor of the month to fear monger where money can be made selling vaccines/etc, information/knowledge is limited.. and there it is.

 

[It_is_I_Rae]

Great question! Thank you for not letting things slide.

Seemed like slow wasting was the MOST notable symptom in older birds.. Her weight sounds like fast decline more than slow wasting..

And before seeing the post #64 had not YET previously heard/seen such thing reported. If I could use more than one like button.. it was hard to decide whether to use the i or the wow.. but I went with wow! Thanks for sharing.. with SO many of us gathered together with lightening fast internet to share our experiences.. I cannot even fathom how much/fast knowledge and understanding is going to continue expanding!!

Hmm.. I WONDER NOW... I "breed for resistance" specifically to Marek's, recognizing it's an ugly disease and the challenges I face are many, part of the reason I participate of course is personal growth and learning..

SO, birds that never succumb as, lets call them juveniles.. are knowingly exposed (I had a dx, meaning definite carriers), and presumed to be showing SOME resistance.. COULD still have it rear it's ugly head at some time in the future.. IF their immune system is somehow otherwise compromised.. including things like old age.. ONE thing I had not yet considered as being as actual stress, aging!! Though I do think annual molt is a stress.

I was under the impression that the nerves being fully developed wouldn't have the same complications.. BUT this is NOT the SAME complication.. this is NOT the tumor that presses on the nerve & causes limping.. more like actual neurological degrade.. PLEASE forgive me.. what I'm typing is as it's working through my head.. to figure something out.. I *guess* I would expect to see some crop dysfunction.. causing nutrient debt, leading to the seizures.. in this instance perhaps.. and that's very likely WHY I thought no.

Back to the aging thing.. the neural network often diminishes with time/age depending partly on genetics and partly on environment.. Old people can't walk like they used to, lose their teeth, wear diapers, and so on.. what was I thinking?!

Please note five years old is not much for some birds.. but may be up there for others.. So I feel both ways for this gal.. she's likely considered senior.. though I want her to have lot's of life left.


This has been a bit of a revelation to me! Thank you, always.

According to the state vet at UC Davis in California.. Mdv is "ubiquitous" in poultry environments. And EVEN the birds that were vaccinated MAY still be (many guaranteed are) carrying the disease!

BUT even if it were a perfect storm of things that actually cause the illness/death... a necropsy *may* assign cause as.. ______.

Marek's, Covid, SARS.. name the flavor of the month to fear monger where money can be made selling vaccines/etc, information/knowledge is limited.. and there it is.

So are you saying it is Marek's? Or just old age?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

So are you saying it is Marek's? Or just old age?

Ugh.. I wish I could give you a straight answer.. She is definitely aged. Marek's can only be verified via necropsy or a blood test.

At her age.. I personally would euthanize instead of watching her go down hill slowly.. You've done all you can, in my honest opinion.

BUT if seeing the vet will give you peace of mind on what decision to make going forward and NOT break the bank.. and MAYBE do something for her.. I spent $1000 several months back to confirm prognosis which I had already assessed.. my dogs life had ran it's course (age, cancer symptoms, plus hip dysplasia/arthritis, etc).. I NEEDED a professional opinion from a veterinarian I trusted in order to relieve myself of that anguish and making the decision to have the vet stop her heart.. It still hurts.. but my friend, Daisy May lived a good life and every last moment.. I'm glad I was able to do that for her! Swallow, gulp, deeep exhale, tears flow.. My mom, on the other hand.. was sedated, without food or water (no IV etc).. while her body shut down from the liver cancer last year.. what we like to call "hospice".. and humane.. In other words.. all life ends.. it's never pretty.. are you gonna be able to extend her life for her benefit and will it last long enough to face this again? I'm a TOTAL "Debbie Downer" realist.. so please do in accordance with YOUR heart and mind! This is my answer regarding PETS. I'd be surprised if you get answers, short of necropsy/blood test. BUT always hopeful, some vets really rock! I've shown clearly, thankfully, I do NOT know everything!

I breed my birds, so I won't keep an animal that is not thriving under my conditions (unless changes make sense).. because it does a disservice to my entire well being (caring for failing animals is heart wrenching exhausting), my flock, etc.. inviting more internal/external parasite, disease, predation.. and so on..

Folks like to point fingers at big dairy and big chicken, etc.. when in truth, suffering animals are not productive and back yarder's want to save everything for as long as they possibly can.. letting it limp around and barely get by.. because we THINK that's "living" or it "wants" to live or "has the will" still.. That's supper in nature, and SOMETIMES suffering, according to ME. Again, I understand we are ALL doing our best, usually. So I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.. just sharing information!

5 years is considered a good run for an average chicken. Some live longer. Many don't!

No matter how you proceed, we are here to support you!

 

[jolenesdad]

Great question! Thank you for not letting things slide.

Seemed like slow wasting was the MOST notable symptom in older birds.. Her weight sounds like fast decline more than slow wasting..

And before seeing the post #64 had not YET previously heard/seen such thing reported. If I could use more than one like button.. it was hard to decide whether to use the i or the wow.. but I went with wow! Thanks for sharing.. with SO many of us gathered together with lightening fast internet to share our experiences.. I cannot even fathom how much/fast knowledge and understanding is going to continue expanding!!

Hmm.. I WONDER NOW... I "breed for resistance" specifically to Marek's, recognizing it's an ugly disease and the challenges I face are many, part of the reason I participate of course is personal growth and learning..

SO, birds that never succumb as, lets call them juveniles.. are knowingly exposed (I had a dx, meaning definite carriers), and presumed to be showing SOME resistance.. COULD still have it rear it's ugly head at some time in the future.. IF their immune system is somehow otherwise compromised.. including things like old age.. ONE thing I had not yet considered as being as actual stress, aging!! Though I do think annual molt is a stress.

I was under the impression that the nerves being fully developed wouldn't have the same complications.. BUT this is NOT the SAME complication.. this is NOT the tumor that presses on the nerve & causes limping.. more like actual neurological degrade.. PLEASE forgive me.. what I'm typing is as it's working through my head.. to figure something out.. I *guess* I would expect to see some crop dysfunction.. causing nutrient debt, leading to the seizures.. in this instance perhaps.. and that's very likely WHY I thought no.

Back to the aging thing.. the neural network often diminishes with time/age depending partly on genetics and partly on environment.. Old people can't walk like they used to, lose their teeth, wear diapers, and so on.. what was I thinking?!

Please note five years old is not much for some birds.. but may be up there for others.. So I feel both ways for this gal.. she's likely considered senior.. though I want her to have lot's of life left.


This has been a bit of a revelation to me! Thank you, always.

According to the state vet at UC Davis in California.. Mdv is "ubiquitous" in poultry environments. And EVEN the birds that were vaccinated MAY still be (many guaranteed are) carrying the disease!

BUT even if it were a perfect storm of things that actually cause the illness/death... a necropsy *may* assign cause as.. ______.

Marek's, Covid, SARS.. name the flavor of the month to fear monger where money can be made selling vaccines/etc, information/knowledge is limited.. and there it is.

SO much to think about. I lost a vaccinated pullet coming into lay last month. Such a prime target time for mareks, Im sure it took her down.

I spoke with the state vets at A&M this month, who also believe it is ubiquitous. The actual head of the poultry department told me he believes every chicken in America is exposed by the time they're 3-4 weeks old. He spent a lot of time talking to me, like, almost an hour. I admin a local FB page of chicken folks, and I had a lot of questions about things wanting to A) understand my case and B) try and provide others with accurate information. Im still working on B. Ugh. There's so much.

pertaining to this bird, or an older bird in any flock that could have mareks... its my understanding that the ubiquitous nature of the disease makes mareks sort of a contributing factor in many cases. Necropsy may list any number of things as the cause, however, histology confirms mareks. The degradation of the immune system, the stress of the body fighting an active infection growing, contribute to an environment where any number of issues can come in and take the bird down. I have a friend who just spent 2000 at local vets chasing a mysterious bacterial infection in his flock. Finally, 150 dollars later with histology at the state school lab, and he knows he has mareks in his flock and it took out most of his flock by making the susceptible to the simplest of infections.

It's sort of in this way that I see "breeding for resistance" not much different than good breeding practices in general, and vice versa. It's also in this way that the doctors believe Mareks is pretty pervasive. A breeder that is breeding and following strict culling practices by removing ANY weak birds from the program, is, in effect, breeding for resistance. A breeder following these practices is removing birds at all stages of the program who show themselves to have weak immune systems. Many really dedicated breeders don’t breed hens until they've made it to two years old! Many great breeders could very well have mareks in their flock and never know it, because they're removing the weakest birds all the time. We have problems when these birds, that are carrying the virus, but strong enough to fight it, get into backyard flocks where the weak are NOT culled. A breeder could have no evidence of mareks in their flock, but, that doesn't entirely mean they don't have birds with it.

I personally see my vaccination advise to people comes down to one question: are you willing to cull weak birds? You either vaccinate, or you cull weak birds. I feel like the emphasis on the need to be culling weak birds is sometimes left out of the hot topic vaccine discussion.

I don’t mean to highjack the OPs thread with what I am learning/quesitoning/experiencing. @EggSighted4Life Is there a thread for marek's "discussion"? I find lots of individual threads that happen to get some meaty bits of info, the big giant wonderful FAQ article, but not a "thread" with ongoing discussions.

 

[casportpony]

I don’t mean to highjack the OPs thread with what I am learning/quesitoning/experiencing. @EggSighted4Life Is there a thread for marek's "discussion"? I find lots of individual threads that happen to get some meaty bits of info, the big giant wonderful FAQ article, but not a "thread" with ongoing discussions.

You should start one!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Is there a thread for marek's "discussion"? I find lots of individual threads that happen to get some meaty bits of info, the big giant wonderful FAQ article, but not a "thread" with ongoing discussions.

Well, YOU are the starter of some of my favorite informative ongoing threads for discussion.. I tend to be a thread stopper!

ETA: I'm just too darn distracted to maintain it.