DOG FIGHT on our property, HELP!!! JRT R.I.P. 8/25/10 Post #78

[chicksbestfriend]

Quote:
Thank you for sharing your wisdom of raising bulls, I so appreciate it. Yes, food, people and animal aggression are three different things and need to be disciplined according to the type of aggression. I like how you control your food aggression in dogs. I would be so overjoyed if that technique would work for this female to break that agression. Let me share a little further on the type of food aggression she has or the eating behavior. She does sit and wait for the command to eat, never been a problem there. Me, hubby, and kids, can walk up to her when she is still eating, command her to stop and immediately she stops, she remains in complete submission when we remove her bowl, but we rarely do that as I felt we had it under control. Her food aggression surfaced around 6 months after having her first litter, and her daughter was already introduced to the pack. They use to all eat in the laundry, kitchen area together, which is rather large, but good distance apart. The first time she showed the aggression by growling and snarling her lip, she was then relocated to eat in the living room. Never an incident after the first one. I have taken her outside when the ducks have left behind some kibbles and joins them to eat right next to them, doesnt show aggression, but I stop her from doing that, one command, she backs away and goes on her merry way.

I will definitely take heed on the two at a time and no longer do the three at a time, mixing the order up as to cause separation amongst the pack. Never saw the dynamics of that and can completely see the weaker of the two joining in on the dominant dog when an incident arises. Fortunately, we have not had any fighting or aggressiveness with and towards other animals until this incident. In fact, the two oldest of the pits, helped me raise my pot belly pig from 6 weeks of age to her present age of 4. She use to sleep with the oldest male and eat side by side with him, and the oldest female, the food aggressor was the one to groom her.

And yes, the JRT is a yappy, flappy, high energy dog and for the most part, the pits have tolerated that behavior in her and have never engaged back. As I am writing this, it just dawned on me, that the JRT engaged in the same behavior she did when she was killing my chickens! The JRT usually gulps down her food like there is no tomorrow, but what she started to do, was leave food in her bowl, the chickens would get within her range wanting some of the food, and she would dash out at them and take them down. Once I realized that, I relocated her to another part of the property, the chicken killing stopped, food bowl always empty, but that was the same behavior she did the night the food aggressive dog attacked her, she left food in the bowl! Totally my bad for thinking I had solved the issue with the JRT and I totally left the door open for two food aggressive dogs to come eye to eye! Yikes!! I need to continue to be diligent when things are working, and not let my guard down thinking that the behavior has been changed. I will remove all bowls after each feeding. Thanks for helping me open my eyes. I do take responsibility for the incident that occured, dogs are only as good as their leader leads them to be. Ouch!

 

[twentynine]

Gosh! I read the title of the thread and thought you had a gathering of unwelcome gangstas on your property. Turns out that all the dogs belong to you.

Not a dog trainer, so no words of wisdom on that track.

Reading the original post I had a hard time following or figuring what happened --- other than the JRT got ripped up.

Seems as if the dogs are out of control.

Good dogs- bad dogs don't matter, I think you got to many dogs.

JRT, outside lab, 5 pit bulls?

 

[welsummerchicks]

I would say there are three categories of aggression - against humans, against other dogs, against other animals than dogs.

Food aggression, I would categorize under one of those. Some people think it's separate from the above 3, I go with what type of critter the food aggression is directed at.

And yes, some dogs have one type of aggression and not another.

But in general, an aggressive dog is a hazard to humans even if his aggression is mainly against other animals. The human can get knocked down or even bitten 'by accident'(or so the person might insist).

When I worked with a trainer, we used to sit around and gab a lot before and after class. People were ALWAYS going on about that, 'no, he only has one type of aggression, he only bites when it's Thursday and the sun trines Jupiter'.

And the trainer would LAUGH AND LAUGH AND LAUGH. Usually, the conversation would be cut off by him shouting, 'I don't want to hear any more of this <anglo saxon derived word>!!!!!' This was a guy who had decades and decades of success dealing with tough dogs, biting dogs of all kids, and owned Rotties, German Shepherds and his wife had tiny little dogs. They did obedience at all levels, conformation, tracking, rescue, and he was the best trainer with a dog that I had ever seen in my life, and I had seen some VERY good ones. He could take a dog that had been trained to attack (agitation training) and teach it not to.

And he also would say, 'put this dog to sleep'. He looked at how rigid the behavior was and how predictable, how stable the dog was, how skilled the owner was(no, not at 'managing and controlling the biting dog after evaluation' at CREATING a biting dog!), and a number of other factors. He would work with the dog and he would FIND OUT what situations it would bite under. Usually, to the utter shock of the owner, who would be sitting there chanting, 'he never bites MEN, he never bites WOMEN, he never bites PEOPLE' or as the trainer used to say, 'you know, blah blah blah blah blah', and laugh uproariously.

Having the experience over many years of dealing with thousands and thousands of dogs, day in and out for forty or fifty years, instead of a dozen or a hundred, like most of us, is a very, very different thing. The trainer also does not have all the emotion, raltionalization and er...'logic' we have.

AND....he was very, very insistent that 'aggression is not ALWAYS about a bad owner or a spoiled dog'. He showed us, time and again, that what people so often say, 'It's not the dog's fault' (or even, 'it's NEVER the dog's fault') is bah-lo-nay. Pure and unwashed, BALONEY. Aggression is a complicated, and every situation is somewhat different. That is the best thing he taught me, I think. That it is a complex and varied problem. In one house, it might very well be a 'stable, spoiled, normal dog' and in another house down the street, that biting dog situation may be very, very different.

There very well indeed are dogs, he said, that even he with all his skill and experience, would put to sleep if he had the choice....or could convince the owners...

So keep in mind, whether you agree or not, there are very, very good trainers out there who think this 'well it's not that kind of aggression' reasoning is pointless. In other words, aggression is aggression, and it's dangerous. Food aggression against a dog can change to food aggression against the owner, in the blink of an eye, literally.

The mistake I think people make, is believing that the dog applies all sorts of complex logic to the situation, in other words, anthropomorphosizing. Aggression is a very, very basic and fundamental behavior. Dogs are carnivores, pack hunters. They are, in fact, by definition, aggressive animals. Very simply and very fundamentally.

For example:

But listen to the reaction of the people. They think it's 'cute', 'funny'. To me it is the single most obvious demonstration of the fact that aggression is a very, very basic behavior that is not 'rational', 'logical'....and of how strangely people respond to it. To them, the dog is 'silly', 'funny'. The dog attacks his own foot - why? because it is moving.

Too, the aggression against another dog, say, can suddenly be directed at a human who tries to break up the fight, it may 'look like an accident' or it clearly may NOT 'look like an accident', but the effect in the end is the same, someone gets bitten. In fact breaking up a dog fight is a good way to get bitten and a sizeable number of human bites occur that way, usually with the owner protesting vigorously that 'he never did that before' and 'he only bites other dogs'. And a dog who chases or kills chickens, say, will often wind up biting 'by accident', someone who tries to stop him.

Aggression, no matter what it is directed at, is a problem, and can easily (suddenly or over time) change and spill over into another area. So in the end, I don't see much practical difference between the different types of aggression - they may be corrected differently, but all are dangerous and a serious problem.

Aggression varies a lot in how it LOOKS.

Sometimes it looks like there is a large component of fear. The dog seems to be quiet and obedient, but suddenly becomes terrified and loses it when he gets bumped, hugged or stepped on.

Or he may develop it very clearly over time, starting with growls, snarls and gradually increase the behavior.

Food aggression, generally, develops over time in a 'stable but spoiled' dog. The owner misses the early signs, and pretty soon he has a dog who seemed to pop up 'overnight' with food aggression. It may be directed at only dogs, only other animals, only humans, or only human children or only the non alpha in the family. And it may happen not in a predictable pattern but only in certain situations, which may be identifiable or not.

Or he may be wagging his tail one second and look friendly, and very unpredictably and suddenly bite and go back to the friendly or submissive looking behavior.

I think that is the toughest sort of aggression to deal with. It doesn't seem to be related to any one specific situation, and it is totally unpredictable. It doesn't seem to have any logic behind it. Usually some 'wag' (no pun intended) is sure he's smarter than everyone else and has it figured out. And sometimes, for a while, it does seem that way.

The dog that seems well balanced, friendly overall, and just gradually over time LEARNS to become bossier and bossier is basically a 'normal, spoiled' dog. That is the kind of aggression MOST professional trainers think they can remove very effectively. The only thing I can say, is, never say always, LOL.

I've been distinctly uncomfortable many times when Cesar Milan claims a case 'cured' and puts it back with the owner who seems to be barely coping only when Cesar is there coaching him. I often wonder if you go back a few more months later, if it's still working out so good. Sometimes he goes back a short time later, and we almost always hear, 'well there have been a few incidents, but we are DETERMINED'.

People don't often swap personalities for a more dominant, consistent and leader-type style, and they don't often change their routine permanently so that doggie gets more exercise, training, etc. I think things will quite often slip back gradually to where they were.

People THINK, that with a fear biter, the key is to not have him be afraid, so they will soothe him and comfort him, or at least somewhat more effectively sometimes, they might work desensitization. I think the KEY with a fear biter is that he has a tendency to bite when he is afraid, and it is very, very difficult to famliiarize him with every possible situation and guarantee that he is not going to feel afraid 100%. The bottom line is that THIS dog, when he is afraid, startled, he bites. In other words, an unstable dog. Some of this fear biting is pure biology and then you can't 100% remove it with ANY technique. With some dogs this can be the most difficult sort of aggression to deal with. People THINK all they have to do is 'make sure he isn't affraid' but it winds up being a lot tougher than that.

A person with a chronic biter dog usually thinks they have a great handle on it. They think they have it under control. They almost always say, 'well, yeah, it used to be a problem, but isn't any more, what a surprise to us'. They argue sun up to sun down with anyone who casts doubt on their methods or logic about the biter's reasons or its motivations. They are sure they are a better trainer than everyone else and know better than everyone else. They have analyzed that it is only in this situation or that situation, that the dog bites. They have absolutely convinced themselves that they 'know their own dog' and have a ton of 'reasoning' and 'logic' for why they have arrived at their 'conclusions'.

And then the dog acts like a biting dog, say, he's eating, and something moves near where he is eating, and he attacks, and someone gets bitten. In a given home it may be more likely to be a dog or a person, big deal. Something moved and he snapped at it.

Then the protestations start as to how this was a one time thing, will never happen again, someone else's fault or their fault, they will fix the problem, it will never happen again, isn't a big problem, can be dealt with by doing ABC, etc.

The only thing you can do at that point, is hope that they will listen to someone else who isn't quite as emotionally involved, and will listen to some reason.

The bottom line being, when it comes to our own dogs, we get awful, awful crazy, and we have to be very, very careful about what we 'decide'. Sometimes the best thing is to go to a professional trainer who has no personal issue in the situation(that would exclude the trainer who offers you a costly, lengthy period of private training as a 'solution'), have the dog evaluated, and listen to what that person says.

 

[Candiss]

I do not tolerate human aggression at all, at my house a dog who is human aggressive would be put down. Her dogs are not human aggressive. But if you do not expect a degree of animal aggression be it a chicken, another dog, squirrell, then do not get a dog, you have to know the dog and what triggers it, I have pitbulls I trust with my chickens but would never trust my yorkie with the chicks, she circles the brooder like a mad women... We are humans and most of us do not have that much self control, to save your pets, do not leave the dogs unattended. I have alot of what most people consider "left over" dogs that no one wants and I also have AKC Champions, and I will tell you a dog is a dog and not every dog can be helped, but the majority can. I have had to put rescue dogs to sleep because they were human aggressive and I have two kids that come before anyone or anything, not worth the risk to chance it. I love the breed and I will not be the person who makes a person go "OMG that is a Pit Bull, look at it - it is a monster".... That is crap, I love the breed too much. I want a well behaved dog who is social and family friendly, they do not have to love other animals, I had a pit for 14 years (RIP Storm) that did not like other animals and she would be good as long as I was around, let me leave and totally different story. My options were to put her down because she was a game pit and did what game dogs usually do or be responsible for her and only allow her to join the pack when I was around, because she knew I was alpha. Obviously I chose the latter.

I better go, my cat is climbing the parrot cage... Maybe I should put him down too..

I think you have a better sense of what you can do to help YOUR pack and I wish you the best.

Candace

 

[Brindlebtch]

Quote:
The dog I mentioned, in a previous post, that was so animal aggressive, was absolutely rock solid trustworthy around people and adored children. But you are right, you should never leave small kids alone with any breed of dog.

 

[hunterjumper999]

Male lab, neutered, 15 yrs. old (Was with me from first day of birth)
Female JRT, spayed, 10 yrs. old (was a rescue dog for hubby before we got together)
The rest were acquired in our marriage.
Male Pitbull, intact, 5 yrs old (father)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 4 yrs old (mother)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 2 1/2 yrs old (daughter)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 1 yr old, (daughter)
Male Pitbull, intact, 1 yr old (son)


I'd say that you need to either designate one of the males as an outside dog or find a home for it. It is MY EXPERIENCE that females fight more than males so the other option ould be to spay females OR keep two groups. in/out. I'm guessing like us, your situation was 100 percent under control till you exceeded dogs per kennel space. We have a male/female pair outside right now. When the female comes inside to whelp in about another four weeks my other female will be going outside... I just wont have two females ( one with pups) in the house at the same time.

That said, if you are spaying /neutering alot of the dominating behaviours should come to an end in a few months ( or weeks, i forget what it is with dogs and can only remember horses lol)

 

[FourPawz]

Quote:
As would I. Jacks are notoriously dog aggressive and in a house full of uncontrolled bull terriers of any stripe they are going to get their butts chewed to bits - it's just a matter of time.

To the OP, you need to get control of every dog on the place, NEVER leave them loose when you are not right there to supervise and you need to neuter any males. It's going to take hours of training on your part. It won't be easy, but you have to invest the time before you or your dogs get badly hurt.

 

[Brindlebtch]

Quote:
As would I. Jacks are notoriously dog aggressive and in a house full of uncontrolled bull terriers of any stripe they are going to get their butts chewed to bits - it's just a matter of time.

This is just a funny (sort of) story. A long time ago at an agility trial, a Jack was at the start line ready to run. The handler released it with a command and the Jack took off from the start line, ran all the way across the ring (over 80 yards), and latched on to a person's ankle. This dog did not know this person and had not had any contact whatsoever with this person and this person did not have rodents for pets.
I saw this happen. Obviously the Jack was banned for life from participating in events held by that agility organization.

 

[FourPawz]

"A long time ago at an agility trial, a Jack was at the start line ready to run. The handler released it with a command and the Jack took off from the start line, ran all the way across the ring (over 80 yards), and latched on to a person's ankle."

Speaking of which, have you ever seen this You Tube video?

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

Male lab, neutered, 15 yrs. old (Was with me from first day of birth)
Female JRT, spayed, 10 yrs. old (was a rescue dog for hubby before we got together)
The rest were acquired in our marriage.
Male Pitbull, intact, 5 yrs old (father)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 4 yrs old (mother)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 2 1/2 yrs old (daughter)
Female Pitbull, not spayed, 1 yr old, (daughter)
Male Pitbull, intact, 1 yr old (son)

First thing you need to do is to get all of those dogs fixed.​