Dog Killing Cats...

[DuckGirl77]

what breed? what training does she have? how have you worked on socializing her around the cats? are the cats outside or inside?

lots of questions before you can work on a solution.

DutchBunny, alpha theory in dogs was debunked years ago. The command collar is simply a plastic prong collar. And the methods are largely basic obedience and training. Not alpha theory. Dogs aren't wolves and they know that we aren't either.

I would appreciate it if you gave proof before just saying it doesn't work. It follows the way dogs interact. It works.

Thank you. There are times when we want to put her down, but then she is so sweet to us and we know it's not her fault that she has such strong instincts. She deserves a home where she can be happy, and play outside. Here are some pictures of her if you guys want to see.

Awww

 

[DutchBunny03]

She is a very beautiful dog!! Dainerra, from experience, alpha training works BEAUTIFULLY. I haven't yet bought a command collar(super poor right now), but switched from treat "training" to alpha training as soon as I watched the video. I saw how people could trust there dogs to obey unconditionally, and wanted that. Alpha training makes that a possibility. Once I started, my dog immediatly began to positively respond. I can now trust him to go for walks off leash in some areas. The training plays off of bred-in instincts to obey, but not fear, the alpha.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Well, I think @dainerra has made some really good points! And with concern for the dogs well being.

When you do start training, it's best to do so after a really good off leash run. Walking simply doesn't do it for dogs with high energy. And electrifying the fence is a great solution to stop the escaping (as finances allow), as amazing as it is too see a dog climb a fence like that. I have seen dogs who became afraid to move from incorrect use of the shock collar. So all the points made are actually valid. It's just that what works for some may not work for others. And that's true whether we are talking about cats, dogs, chickens, or people and different training methods. And there are products I would be adamant are inferior with the knowledge I have. For example, "the dog didn't respond let's turn it up" thing that was mentioned. So I would say that even if not in complete agreement, at least pay attention since you are aware those types of issues exist. Knowledge is power!

@Serenity06 You have a little more experience than I realized. So it was obvious you had some understanding to me before... but you are better off than most who are trying to figure this out for the first time! This does sound like a challenge though...

For the mind, have you tried treat dispensing toys? I put the regular dog food in them. Works great for ONE of my dogs. When you are on a walk on leash, let the dog stop to sniff things when they want. This is for the mind. It's like they are getting a whole story through their nose about who's been there before. I used to try and make them keep moving because I was out there for me, but we are both happier when I'm not trying to drag the dog.

Even though I don't currently have this issues, one reason I participate is for all the things I learn from others' experiences. I love being a part of a helping and caring community here at BYC!

 

[DutchBunny03]

I agree. A shock collar is a bad idea for new dog owners, or for people who aren't actually concerned for their dog. I considered an invisible fence for my dog(the kind with a shock collar), but opted out of it because I didn't want to destroy my dog's trust.

 

[dainerra]

She is a very beautiful dog!! Dainerra, from experience, alpha training works BEAUTIFULLY. I haven't yet bought a command collar(super poor right now), but switched from treat "training" to alpha training as soon as I watched the video. I saw how people could trust there dogs to obey unconditionally, and wanted that. Alpha training makes that a possibility. Once I started, my dog immediatly began to positively respond. I can now trust him to go for walks off leash in some areas. The training plays off of bred-in instincts to obey, but not fear, the alpha.

no, alpha theory has long been debunked. Yes, it will work for some because the majority of dogs are middle of the road in terms of personality and training needs. A submissive dog can be permanently scarred from being trained with such methods. A dominant dog, the kind that the theory is supposed to help you train, will send you to the ER.

The man whose research of wolves brought about the idea of "alpha theory" long ago retracted his research since it was based on a faulty premise. The wolves being studied weren't a pack - they were groups of unrelated animals that were housed together in a sanctuary. As the wolves were complete strangers, close in age and unrelated, there were frequent squabbles and low-level fighting. This isn't how it works in a true wolf pack. Wolves and dogs don't force a lower ranked animal into submission - the behavior is offered. Alpha animals don't go around giving orders or putting lower ranked animals in their place.

True "alpha training" in dogs simply means being clear about the rules and what is expected, being consistent in what behavior is expected, rewarding correct behavior, and giving corrections for bad behavior.

Honestly, "treat" training is often maligned by people who don't understand how it is actually supposed to work. It's called balanced training. You reward for good behavior, correct bad behavior. You MUST have both in moderation. People tend to think that "treat training" means simply giving food rewards. For some dogs, the "treat" is actually a bit of playtime, a toy, praise, even a smile from the owner.

 

[DutchBunny03]

The thing is that with only using positive reinforcement, the dog may choose what he wants to do over the reward. If he decides that, what incentive does he have to obey? I used only positive reinforcement on my dog for long time, taking advise from that mistaken Dog Training for Dummies book. Since I began using alpha training, my relationship with my dog has only improved, and he obeys almost unconditionally. My dog is pretty sensitive, so he only needs mild correction. The less correction you have to use, the better!! I recommend you watch the training video. You can probably find it on YouTube.

 

[dainerra]

The thing is that with only using positive reinforcement, the dog may choose what he wants to do over the reward. If he decides that, what incentive does he have to obey? I used only positive reinforcement on my dog for long time, taking advise from that mistaken Dog Training for Dummies book. Since I began using alpha training, my relationship with my dog has only improved, and he obeys almost unconditionally. My dog is pretty sensitive, so he only needs mild correction. The less correction you have to use, the better!! I recommend you watch the training video. You can probably find it on YouTube.

that's why I'm not a proponent of "positive only training" It's balanced training that is key - rewards for correct behavior and corrections for incorrect. When first teaching something new, keep training positive and happy. Break it into small steps and reward for each stage as you advance. Heeling, for example, you begin by rewarding for the correct position at your side. Then for just 2-3 steps. You gradually increase the amount of good behavior you expect before rewarding while. In the beginning, you give a negative marker "ehhhh" is what I use and give the dog a chance to correct himself. If he doesn't make attempts to fix it himself, correct and get the dog back in position to begin again.

Always give the dog the chance to fix his own mistake. It makes a huge difference in 1) how confident the dog will be in his obedience and 2) how easily he will handle new situations and how quickly he will learn new things.

What you are describing sounds more like "balanced training" than alpha training.

 

[dainerra]

alpha training is much more confrontational - harsh corrections, no (or very rare) rewards, man-handling the dog into position and to correct behaviors. Often views the entire dog/owner relationship as you vs the dog instead of a mutually beneficial partnership. Trainers who espouse alpha theory often encourage the use of alpha rolls as well, even for young puppies. It's frequently viewed as a building block for the future relationship - teach the pup that it must submit from the day it comes home.

 

[DutchBunny03]

The dog "correcting his own mistake" is just him wanting a treat, petting, etc. That is why negative reinforcement must be used, as well as some positive reinforcement. The dogs are not "man handled". They are treated with care, but are given a firm correction.

 

[dainerra]

The dog "correcting his own mistake" is just him wanting a treat, petting, etc. That is why negative reinforcement must be used, as well as some positive reinforcement. The dogs are not "man handled". They are treated with care, but are given a firm correction.

but hte dog "correcting his own mistake doesn't get a reward. Just avoids a correction. There are many different parts of dog traing +P (giving a reward) -P (withholding a reward) +N (giving a correction) and -R (withholding a correction) Balanced dog training uses a mixture of all 4, depending on the situation.

I can tell you several fields that don't use alpha theory - police dogs, search and rescue, detection dogs, service dogs of various sorts including guide dogs for the blind. All give corrections, sure. But none of them use alpha theory. All of these are fields where you want the dog to be right 100% of the time but you can't use corrections once training is over. Plus, with apprehension dogs in Police work, you need a dog that thinks he is 1000% king of the world, could take down King Kong if you asked him to, and will keep his grip despite being hit, kicked, stabbed, or even shot. So physical corrections to a dog like that are nothing. The biggest punishment for many of them is the training session ending before they get to take down the decoy. Or disappointment for their handler. Also, the dog must have 100% certainty what is expected of him from a given command, must obey immediately and the handler must have 100% certainty that that will happen. He must put his life in the dog's hands and trust. The dog must do the same - face down the threat with the knowledge of what is expected of him and knowing that the handler is his partner.

Part of the "alpha theory" problem is the belief that a dog does things out of a desire to be dominant. There are actually very few dominant dogs. There are, however, a lot of insecure dogs that will take advantage of a lack of leadership and throw their weight around because they don't see anyone else as being in charge. These dogs are easy to spot because they are always doing "dominant" things like trying to hump other dogs, trying to "stand over" other dogs, being pushy with their owners and others, etc etc A truly alpha dog doesn't do any of those things except as a last resort. 99% of "problems" are solved by a simple look and the other dog offers submissive behaviors.

As I said, what you are describing isn't alpha theory. It's balanced dog training. Alpha training is something entirely different. Alpha theory is a "hammer and nails" practice - when the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. Meaning that alpha theory is based on the idea that your dog wants to be the boss and you must regularly put him in his place through the use of corrections. When that is all that is in your toolbox, every interaction with a dog is you vs the dog.