Dog Killing Cats...

[EggSighted4Life]

OMG, she is soooo cute!

 

[Serenity06]

Hi. 

This is a touchy subject for me as I have a love my 3 rescue dogs which I can promise care more about me than cats. However I do understand your dilemma. 

One thing is... my dogs and many are OK with animals they KNOW belong to them. For example, they know they can't touch my chickens but are after ANYTHING else that moves on our property. My friend who has both dogs and a cat.... his cat is fine but others are prey. The dogs know which ones belong there. So since yours are mostly outside he may not realize those are a part of your pack.

And I will say being the leader of my pack definitely makes a difference. Not just about them submitting to you, but understanding that you are in control of the situation. And you are correct that you won't always be there to call them off. Animals can be sneaky and dogs specifically know when they are being watched and recognize eye contact. Also, many animal people have told me that even though I train my dogs it's not the same as going through an actual obedience course. Dogs will submit out of fear but it is different when they submit out of trust. I think a lot of those training thing are as much to teach the people about being consistent and communicating effectively with their dog. Incidentally, I do find female bullies to be more prey driven and stubborn than others.

It's not true that shelters can't adopt out dogs with other dog or cat aggression. The shelters usually make that info known so they can go to an appropriate home with the best chance of living happily ever after. They will even adopt out dogs that aren't good with children to a home that doesn't have any. That's the problem with "no kill" shelters, they ONLY take the animals they want to! Also, they can still kill up to 10% and call it no kill. :/  But if they know they are just letting others go to the shelter across town that MUST take them, to me they are NO better.

When you see that FOCUS you must distract the dog, redirect it's energy into something productive. For example, my dog used to nibble our fingers when excited or jump... we taught her to pick up a toy or trash anything she can get her lips on that won't cause trouble. Now she grabs something and dances all around. You can try a shock collar if you have to. Shock the dog every time it looks that way. This is NOT too cause pain but to create an immediate distraction. When used correctly, it can be a great tool and is NOT in my opinion cruel. Especially compared to the turmoil in your heart of the kitties you already lost or the pain you will feel if you do have to put down the dog. I am sorry for your losses! I sure didn't enjoy disposing of cats even that didn't belong to me. 

I have successfully taught many dogs to be OK around my chickens. Some NEVER will be! Breed does have some to do with it, but isn't the whole story. Many "bully" breed dogs are the best family pets ever, many are not. But I don't believe breed specific legislation is any less ignorant than segregation and slavery! A lot of it does have to do with relationship to the owner. And with no experience some breeds and individuals will need more work. If you decide to try more, I will come up with as many ways possible to try and figure it out. In other words, I hope it isn't too late for y'all. 

If you decide to put the pup down, a gun shot to the head is very fast and the dog will never know what hit it. Also, the kill shelter usually gives the animal a chance for adoption, sometimes only a 72 hour hold before death though. Here is CA, it's the law they must hold for 72 hours. If it's a stray, it's free. But like $10 if it is owner surrendered. I agree though, that would be a scary end! And the vet will often do it for a very reasonable fee, with you in attendance. Probably less then a standard visit which is usually $45 for us.   Sad to remember the dogs I had to put down from cancer.

Have you tried calling any bully breed rescues? You are in a very difficult situation!   Best wishes. 

How do you get your dogs to be okay with your chickens? When you say that do you mean you would trust them with your chickens even if you weren't there? She is okay with the chickens as long as they don't get out. I've even had a couple get out, and she saw them but didn't go after them. There is a Bully Rescue near me, but they don't accept owner surrenders. I've thought about a shock collar for her before, but they're so expensive. There are some cheap ones online, but I'm afraid even if I did get one it would be cheaply made. If I had the money I would definitely get one though. I don't think it's because she doesn't understand that the cats are ours. She hates when we pet them, they rub us, or if we pay any attention to them. She's better with them outside than inside. I don't know why she's like that. Maybe she's jealous?

 

[Serenity06]

I just found one on Amazon that we'll try. It has really good reviews and it's affordable. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LP507HE/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8 But I've never used a shock collar before. Can anyone give me some tips on how to go about training her with it?

 

[dainerra]

do NOT use a shock collar unless you are trained in the correct timing and use of them. If done incorrectly, she will view the pain as coming from the cat and will increase her aggression against them.
You will need to find a trainer (trainers who work with retrievers and obedience work are good places to start) to show you how to use it correctly. Check the credentials of the trainer very carefully first.

As for trusting dogs alone with animals they have previously preyed on, the answer is NEVER. You may get her to the point where she can be trusted with supervision but I would never let her be unsupervised.

Part of the problem is also likely your timing. You need to give the leave it command and redirect her focus before she is tuned into them. At the first notice she gives them, even as little as an ear flick because she hears them coming, you need to give the command. Redirect her focus on you.

Some dogs simply aren't good with cats. It's a fact of life. You may find a rescue that will be willing to help you find a home for her, especially if you offer to keep her with you until they find her a place. No animal shelter is required to put a hold on owner surrenders. If they are at capacity, your dog may be put down before you get back to the car.
If it comes to the point where you can't handle her issues and can't find another place for her, then take her to the vet and have her euthanized. She will be with people who care about her, not alone in a terrifying place. And without the risk of ending up in a bad home where who knows what may happen to her.

It may simply be something that needs to be managed. Use a long line to keep her under control outside. Be vigilant on her interactions with any cat. If the cats are inside, make sure that they have safe places to get away from her in every room. Don't leave her unsupervised where she may come into contact with them.

 

[dainerra]

there are a few good brands of e-collar but you aren't likely to find them for less than $100+ unless you get a deal on a used one. I wouldn't risk using a cheap knockoff brand like this one.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

How do you get your dogs to be okay with your chickens? When you say that do you mean you would trust them with your chickens even if you weren't there? She is okay with the chickens as long as they don't get out. I've even had a couple get out, and she saw them but didn't go after them. There is a Bully Rescue near me, but they don't accept owner surrenders. I've thought about a shock collar for her before, but they're so expensive. There are some cheap ones online, but I'm afraid even if I did get one it would be cheaply made. If I had the money I would definitely get one though. I don't think it's because she doesn't understand that the cats are ours. She hates when we pet them, they rub us, or if we pay any attention to them. She's better with them outside than inside. I don't know why she's like that. Maybe she's jealous?

I have spent a lot of hours training, can be more specific when you are ready (& I have more time). Yes, I would and do trust my dogs alone with the chickens all the time. Not when the chicks are real small though, usually not before 6 weeks. It's way to tempting! And probably not if we had previous incidents.

I do understand what's being said about not using the collar improperly.... but you have to work within your means. And at this point is worth it to try and save the dogs' life! I am sure you can watch some GOOD training videos so you can do your best to get it right. It's unfortunate that you can't get help from the rescue since you tried to help the dog for a longer period of time.

Oh, dogs are soooo jealous. Seriously! So that doesn't surprise me at all. Sounds like you know her pretty good and can read her reactions well. So I know you are trying to have a good outcome. I don't know if you will be able to stop the cat aggression, but I believe you MIGHT be able to because you are committed. Just know that it won't happen over night and will take lots of practice!

Good for you for helping those in need! I hope it gets better for you.

 

[Serenity06]

do NOT use a shock collar unless you are trained in the correct timing and use of them.   If done incorrectly, she will view the pain as coming from the cat and will increase her aggression against them.
You will need to find a trainer (trainers who work with retrievers and obedience work are good places to start) to show you how to use it correctly.     Check the credentials of the trainer very carefully first.

As for trusting dogs alone with animals they have previously preyed on, the answer is NEVER.   You may get her to the point where she can be trusted with supervision but I would never let her be unsupervised.


Part of the problem is also likely your timing.  You need to give the leave it command and redirect her focus before she is tuned into them.   At the first notice she gives them, even as little as an ear flick because she hears them coming, you need to give the command.   Redirect her focus on you.

Some dogs simply aren't good with cats.  It's a fact of life.   You may find a rescue that will be willing to help you find a home for her, especially if you offer to keep her with you until they find her a place.    No animal shelter is required to put a hold on owner surrenders.   If they are at capacity, your dog may be put down before you get back to the car.    

If it comes to the point where you can't handle her issues and can't find another place for her, then take her to the vet and have her euthanized.   She will be with people who care about her, not alone in a terrifying place.   And without the risk of ending up in a bad home where who knows what may happen to her.

It may simply be something that needs to be managed.  Use a long line to keep her under control outside.   Be vigilant on her interactions with any cat.   If the cats are inside, make sure that they have safe places to get away from her in every room.    Don't leave her unsupervised where she may come into contact with them.    

I'm pretty sure most people who use shock collars for their dogs arent tethnically properly trained to use them. I will do my research before I start to use it. I don't have the money for a personal dog trainer, or a $100+ e collar.
I do redirect the moment she looks at the cat or STARTS to look at the cat. If a cat jumps then I know she's going to look, and I say leave it before she has a chance.
I definitely disagree about trusting dogs with animals they previously preyed on. Our Great Pyrenees killed ducks and kittens when he was young. He also tried to go for my goats when we first got them. Now he can be with chickens alone, and he is always outside with the cats unsupervised. We even keep him in the pen with the goats sometimes. It took him years to get to the point where we could trust him with the cats, but eventually he ignored them as with the chickens and goats. He's 10 now. My beagle mix also killed cats, and would have my rabbit too if she had the chance. She's perfectly fine now though. She's even fine with running cats or flying chickens. She ignores them. So, it's not that we don't have experience with these kind of things. The difference is that my other two dogs were fine with just an hour walk a day, and weren't escape artists. This dog can climb chain link, open gates and dig under. She bounces off the walls if she only gets a one hour walk a day for more than 2 days in a row. So, it needs to be fixed before she just gets accustomed to cats, if ever. Giving her to someone else or a shelter is just giving the problem to someone else even if we could find someone to give her to.

 

[DutchBunny03]

Dogs can definately be around animals they once preyed upon. My dog used to chase my rabbits, but now they are fine together, even unsupervised.

 

[dainerra]

For an active dog, walks aren't exercise. That is true of many breeds. An hour walk would simply be a warm-up for any of the GSDs I've owned, for example. Just enough to get them loose and ready to run. Also, some dogs need MENTAL exercise as much or more than physical. As an example, this is my current GSDs schedule when he was 2. 5-10 minutes obedience exercise in AM before work. Walk for 30 mins. Come home, 45+ minutes off-leash play time with lots of running. 30 mins obedience work. Formal obedience class 1-2X a week. Offleash hiking (2+ hours once a week). Long 4+ mile walk, once a week. And that was enough to keep the edge off of him. BARELY.
Shoot, at 6 years old an hour walk twice a day wouldn't keep him from bouncing off the walls, let alone skipping a day. And that's with getting other exercise and training besides!

Many dogs are climbers or escape artists. I'd use some hot wire at the top and bottom of the fence. Or get an invisible fence and run that just inside the chainlink (or just outside it if you have a small yard). The chainlink will keep her from just charging through the invisible fence. And the corrections from the invisible fence will stop her from climbing or digging.

The reason that cheap e-collars work for many of the general public is that 1) they don't care if the equipment actually works correctly - if sometimes they hit the button and it doesn't do anything, they just turn it up a notch and assume that the dog is being stubborn and 2) they don't care if they actually train the dog. They are perfectly happy with a dog that ends up TERRIFIED of whatever they want to teach them to avoid. Or a dog that stops acting hyper at training - they don't care that the dog has shut down and is actually afraid to make a mistake that will result in a correction so they do nothing.

Every dog is different and has different needs. Most dogs only chase cats (chickens, squirrels, whatever) because it's FUN. They run, the animal runs away, they chase,sometimes the animal makes a lot of noise or sudden unexpected movements. YEAH PLAYTIME. If the animal is killed, it's most often an accident or simply part of the game. It's not out of an actual desire to kill. That is relatively easy to train away as long as your consistent.
A dog that actually focuses on killing cats is quite another story. And what I said in my previous post is why e-collars aren't recommended for aggression issues. Most dogs trained "at home" don't really have aggression.

Your GP sounds like a typical puppy. He chased things in play and sometimes they were hurt or killed. As he grew up and learned, he became trustworthy around them because his actual genetic instinct was to NOT chase his charges.

 

[theoldchick]

I've seen a lot of people in this predicament. And I've learned the most difficult thing for the human is the guilt they feel when dealing with this type of situation. You did nothing wrong. The dog is simply following her genetics. Some dogs get along with everybody and some dogs don't. Aggressive dogs are difficult to handle even for the most experienced trainer. However, a dog trainer does have the knowledge to help direct the dog's prey drive. They understand the dog's personality and will not put the dog in a situation they can't handle. They accept the dog's personality and create the environment for the dog to thrive. Dog don't like cats= a home with no cats. Most of us other humans simply can't take the time, money or emotional effort in these challenging cases. Thus we feel guilty. We feel we have failed the dog we wanted to save. We are frustrated that we can't help the neglected dog we saved.

As you found out no-kill shelters are full (and one must seriously vet these type of shelters) and not many people want to deal with this type of dog. Get out there and do some serious networking with your area veterinarians, Dog clubs,online sources, shelters and so forth. Represent your dog as honestly as possible. Be sure to mention her good and bad qualities. You will have to do your homework and you may find a suitable match for her. Let go of all the emotional baggage of finding a less-than-perfect pet a good home. Think with your mind and remember there might be a perfect owner (vet references are a must) for your dog. You just have to be willing to let her go.

If you do find yourself in the situation where you have to euthanize her, do so with respect. Find a vet you trust and discuss in detail how you want to euthanize her. If you want to hold her during the process,let them know. If you want to remain with her for a few moments, let them know. You may find a vet that will come to your house. Don't be afraid to shed tears. And don't beat yourself up over the fact you weren't her perfect owner. Don't think you didn't help her, because you did help her. You didn't abandon her. You didn't leave her on the side of the road. Instead you gave her a home, gave her food, and loved her. Love her to the very end. Shed your tears. Cry as hard as you want. And always remember she wasn't perfect but you loved her anyway.