Dog Killing Cats...

[Chickerdoodle13]

For the OP: I really love Baskerville muzzles for training. That are a type of muzzle you can leave on even when not during a training session because the dog can drink through it. These are the muzzles I recommend for people with dogs that eat foreign bodies or for those that want to be able to give treats through a muzzle. I agree that a dog could still injure or kill a cat through a muzzle but they are great for introducing animals and for training. Just make sure you follow the instructions when introducing it to your dog so it is a positive experience for her.

You can get these muzzles right on Amazon.

 

[DutchBunny03]

This is the same point we got to the last time and it frustrates me to hear this sort of thinking because it is really quite erroneous. Dogs don't equate treats with "manipulation". Working dogs are still rewarded. Police dogs, military dogs, bomb dogs, search dogs are all rewarded even at the highest level. I can tell you these dogs would not perform as enthusiastically if they were not rewarded. Their ENTIRE job in life is all about the reward.

I've tried training my dog with praise only. It's not that she wouldn't do what I asked her to do but she did them with far less enthusiasm and lost interest in training sessions much quicker. When I'm training my dog, I want them to be happy and excited to work. I don't ALWAYS have to have treats with me to get her to do what I want. Many things are so ingrained in her head that she does them automatically and all she needs now is a "good girl" (things like sitting at curbs, sitting and waiting before running out the door, looking at me instead of barking at strangers approaching) You are not locked into treats forever if you use them, but I can guarantee that treat motivated dogs will learn more enthusiastically and be much happier if this is used as part of a training program.

I know I am much less enthusiastic about a job if there is no reward in it for me!

The dog does get rewarded, but by praise, petting, and more playtime after a training session. Just not with treats. Treats are an unnecessary part of training that many people use. Would if you forget to bring a pocketful of treats everywhere you go with your dog? What incentive does your dog have to obey then? You always have the ability to pet your dog, though. You do not only use positive reinforcement. Your dog may weigh which he wants more, the treat/praise or chasing the squirrel across the road. This could, and has, resulted in dogs getting hit by by cars, and it was all the owner's fault for not training their dog right. Your dog needs to know that disobedience will come a firm correction. Yes, give your dog a reward. Give him plenty of rewards. But not in treat form.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

The dog does get rewarded, but by praise, petting, and more playtime after a training session. Just not with treats. Treats are an unnecessary part of training that many people use. Would if you forget to bring a pocketful of treats everywhere you go with your dog? What incentive does your dog have to obey then? You always have the ability to pet your dog, though. You do not only use positive reinforcement. Your dog may weigh which he wants more, the treat/praise or chasing the squirrel across the road. This could, and has, resulted in dogs getting hit by by cars, and it was all the owner's fault for not training their dog right. Your dog needs to know that disobedience will come a firm correction. Yes, give your dog a reward. Give him plenty of rewards. But not in treat form.

A properly trained dog would still obey without a treat because they've been trained with consistency. I don't always carry treats because I've trained so extensively with them that when I say a command, the command is so ingrained in her head with positive reinforcement that she does it without thinking. I really think you need to read up about dog psychology. Much of training is about making new pathways and connections in a dog's brain. Research has shown that positively associated pathways stick much faster than those trained with punishment. This has been shown in both the human world and the dog world.

You are missing a few crucial steps of training. One is consistency and the other is phasing out treats. Both of these are commonly forgotten by owners. If you train correctly, then there would be no question between what is the higher reward (treat or squirrel) but the command becomes such a part of the dog's behavior that saying "sit, stay, come" or whatever it is you want to dog to do to stop them from running into the road just happens without the dog processing "squirrel or treat"? It's all about strengthening these neural pathways.

Many dogs get hit by cars because people don't leash them or they train them improperly, NOT because people choose to train with positive reinforcement.

 

[DutchBunny03]

A properly trained dog would still obey without a treat because they've been trained with consistency. I don't always carry treats because I've trained so extensively with them that when I say a command, the command is so ingrained in her head with positive reinforcement that she does it without thinking. I really think you need to read up about dog psychology. Much of training is about making new pathways and connections in a dog's brain. Research has shown that positively associated pathways stick much faster than those trained with punishment. This has been shown in both the human world and the dog world.

You are missing a few crucial steps of training. One is consistency and the other is phasing out treats. Both of these are commonly forgotten by owners. If you train correctly, then there would be no question between what is the higher reward (treat or squirrel) but the command becomes such a part of the dog's behavior that saying "sit, stay, come" or whatever it is you want to dog to do to stop them from running into the road just happens without the dog processing "squirrel or treat"? It's all about strengthening these neural pathways.

Many dogs get hit by cars because people don't leash them or they train them improperly, NOT because people choose to train with positive reinforcement.

Rewards have their place, but treats do not. If treats were not used in the first place, the step of "phasing them out" wouldnt be needed. I wish i had trained my dog without treats from the beginning. I recently began using a new form of training that does not use treats, amd lets you tell your dog "no". I am so fed up with all these "training" methods that only use rewards and treats, and dont want you to say "no" or correct your dog at all. My dog now responds better and obeys when i tell him to more often. And yes, dogs can get hit by cars in part because the owner did not train their dog correctly, using only rewrards and treats.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Honestly.... I can see both points of view.... but that's enough bickering when the OP isn't even participating any more.

No rudeness intended on my part to any participant.

That's the wonderful thing about BYC and the reason many of us are here, to get other points of view. What works for some in one location with one animal may not work for others in another. Just like our birds and dogs each of us are individuals. Sometimes you have to switch it up on the fly. Yes, we ALL work for some kind of reward. And it's OK to disagree! But we don't have to keep wasting our energy trying to convince somebody else they are wrong. To them, they are not wrong. They are sharing what worked FOR THEM. I don't think either of you are wrong, just different understandings and preferences AND experiences. And it's gone on long enough that we have heard both sides of the sharing and CARING! Obviously... I am NOT the only one who is passionate about this.

I hope to hear back how the OP and her animals are doing.

Again thank you guys for sharing your personal experiences.

We can take the information we have and make the best decision we can for OUR situations.

Hope y'all have a great day. I am passionate about my animals and will probably read some of the training suggestions again!

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

This is where I think we have to part ways on this discussion. I'm not sure why you think you can't say "no" while using treats as a reward for training. Different dogs respond to different types of training, but research has shown that using rewards in a training program consisting mainly of positive reinforcement is not only the safest form of training (in regards to inducing aggression) but also gets the best, most consistent results.

 

[Adalida]

This was a very interesting read. I hope the OP comes back and tells us what she decided to do with the dog.

I just wanted to say, post #20 by @theoldchick was very beautifully worded, especially the last few lines. Thank you for that. We had a dog with a "fatal flaw" so to speak (way too long of a story to get into). She was put down and we felt guilty for years. I eventually realized that it was the right thing to do, and honestly should have been done sooner. Your post was so so right, and if OP is still reading this thread, I hope she rereads it.

 

[DutchBunny03]

This is where I think we have to part ways on this discussion. I'm not sure why you think you can't say "no" while using treats as a reward for training. Different dogs respond to different types of training, but research has shown that using rewards in a training program consisting mainly of positive reinforcement is not only the safest form of training (in regards to inducing aggression) but also gets the best, most consistent results.

I didn't mean that all treat raining wont use negative reinforcement. But i have seen some of those puppy training books and pamphlets that say that the puppy is too young to be told no, and that saying no will make your dog not like you, and all that junk(drives me nuts

). Research only tells you what you want to. I have found that almost EVERYTHING is biased. You can find research that says one thing, then click on a different webpage that says the exact oppsosite, but with an equal amount of facts. That is when you just have to try it for yourself.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I didn't mean that all treat raining wont use negative reinforcement. But i have seen some of those puppy training books and pamphlets that say that the puppy is too young to be told no, and that saying no will make your dog not like you, and all that junk(drives me nuts ). Research only tells you what you want to. I have found that almost EVERYTHING is biased. You can find research that says one thing, then click on a different webpage that says the exact oppsosite, but with an equal amount of facts. That is when you just have to try it for yourself.

I'm not talking "research" on webpages. I'm taking peer reviewed research papers. I try to keep up with the recent behavior publications because one of my veterinary interests (in addition to poultry medicine) is behavior.

 

[DutchBunny03]

Websites can have some sound information and research. Just be sure to get it from a reputable website, such as a veterinary school or dog breeders associations.