Dog Training and Behavior

[CharcoalDragon]

Yeah that makes sense!! And I do love environmental/real life rewards too and use them a lot but then again not every dog finds that reinforcing. I do agree though and it’s definitely a good idea to keep reinforcing and training occasionally throughout the dog’s life but I guess I more meant like the dogs that won’t do anything without food or without the collar on or whatever. Even if I continue to use food or toys or whatever, I usually eventually can at least phase it and reduce it to where they can do a whole chain of behaviors or complete the activity or whatever first. There’s lots that won’t even do one simple thing without food. Some won’t even do it with hidden food and only will if they can physically see the food. I don’t think that’s good or safe. Unless it’s a little tiny puppy or new dog or something that’s still learning.

Yeah, it's hard to 'diagnose' all those situations without context, but for the most part, I would say 1) the dog hasn't actually learned the behavior, 2) the dog hasn't learned what behavior gets the treat, 3) the treat isn't high value enough (or is not the right kind of reward), or 4) the dog doesn't trust the handler, or that producing the behavior doesn't necessarily mean that there's 'something in it for them'.

And a lot of the times you can't give food rewards (just like you can't give play rewards in every situation), but that usually means the handler has to get more creative with the reward so that you don't get too low in your 'relationship bank'.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Yeah, it's hard to 'diagnose' all those situations without context, but for the most part, I would say 1) the dog hasn't actually learned the behavior, 2) the dog hasn't learned what behavior gets the treat, 3) the treat isn't high value enough (or is not the right kind of reward), or 4) the dog doesn't trust the handler, or that producing the behavior doesn't necessarily mean that there's 'something in it for them'.

And a lot of the times you can't give food rewards (just like you can't give play rewards in every situation), but that usually means the handler has to get more creative with the reward so that you don't get too low in your 'relationship bank'.

I think I’m this case with these particular dogs, they’re just a bit stubborn and pushy and/or just expect food now (spoiled might be a better word?) because they’ve always gotten it after every command and stuff. I know they know it because they can do it without food or ball or whatever but they don’t like to and if you try to get them to do more than one thing will bark and demand the food

I’m sure with time they could learn but don’t.

 

[CharcoalDragon]

I think I’m this case with these particular dogs, they’re just a bit stubborn and pushy and/or just expect food now (spoiled might be a better word?) because they’ve always gotten it after every command and stuff. I know they know it because they can do it without food or ball or whatever but they don’t like to and if you try to get them to do more than one thing will bark and demand the food

I’m sure with time they could learn but don’t.

Sounds like they're frustrated, "I did something, why aren't you giving me the reward?"

This might be one of those counterintuitive moments where you need to go back and reteach the behavior(s) as if the dog doesn't know them. Rewarding frequently and freely during the process.
Because I wouldn't want to reward 'demand' barking, nor would I want the dog to be frustrated or otherwise compromised- it's hard to train a partner that doesn't want to work.

If you try taking those steps back, I would focus on really nailing down a clean, precise behavior as you're doing it- I think it might make it more fun for you as a trainer. For example, if the dog's sit is kind of lopsided or splayed, I would see if I could make it a 'proper' sit (which honestly might be fun to shape into a "sit pretty" later). Or if the dog is slow to sit, work on speed.

This is sort of something I'm struggling with right now- I might not be as cool, fun, or rewarding as I think I am. I can ask for behaviors (and get them) without food/reward, but she still is highly interested in easy access low-value food, or even just a patch of grass. "You have to be more interesting than grass." If that's not a punch in the stomach, I don't know what is.
Studies have shown that animals prefer to actually perform a task for a reward, even if the same reward is freely available. Like moving a lever to gain access to a treat. The same type of treat is available freely, but there's something more alluring about performing the task. So really- am I more interesting than the food I'm offering? Definitely something to keep in mind when I'm trying to improve my training.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Sounds like they're frustrated, "I did something, why aren't you giving me the reward?"

This might be one of those counterintuitive moments where you need to go back and reteach the behavior(s) as if the dog doesn't know them. Rewarding frequently and freely during the process.
Because I wouldn't want to reward 'demand' barking, nor would I want the dog to be frustrated or otherwise compromised- it's hard to train a partner that doesn't want to work.

If you try taking those steps back, I would focus on really nailing down a clean, precise behavior as you're doing it- I think it might make it more fun for you as a trainer. For example, if the dog's sit is kind of lopsided or splayed, I would see if I could make it a 'proper' sit (which honestly might be fun to shape into a "sit pretty" later). Or if the dog is slow to sit, work on speed.

This is sort of something I'm struggling with right now- I might not be as cool, fun, or rewarding as I think I am. I can ask for behaviors (and get them) without food/reward, but she still is highly interested in easy access low-value food, or even just a patch of grass. "You have to be more interesting than grass." If that's not a punch in the stomach, I don't know what is.
Studies have shown that animals prefer to actually perform a task for a reward, even if the same reward is freely available. Like moving a lever to gain access to a treat. The same type of treat is available freely, but there's something more alluring about performing the task. So really- am I more interesting than the food I'm offering? Definitely something to keep in mind when I'm trying to improve my training.

That makes a lot of sense!! Thanks!!

Unfortunately though they’re not my dogs and I don’t see them a lot so can’t do much. But do try to work when I’m with them haha I think at this point she’s just so used to that way being like 6 or 7 years old. The other one loves to work but for her it’s all about the ball haha she loves food too but is OBSESSED with the ball. Whereas the older one ignores the ball if you have food LOL she’ll play if you don’t but all over if you have food lol

 

[ShrekDawg]

Here’s a video I made last night with the new puppy but it’s so embarrassing. ignore my awkward self LOL

 

[ShrekDawg]

Part 2 haha

 

[sourland]

I think I’m this case with these particular dogs, they’re just a bit stubborn and pushy and/or just expect food now (spoiled might be a better word?) because they’ve always gotten it after every command and stuff.

And this is what happens when you treat after every command. The dogs think they are training you.

 

[ShrekDawg]

And this is what happens when you treat after every command. The dogs think they are training you.

Oh yeah for sure! I do it some at first with little puppies but eventually transition off it or at least less and less and they never did that with them. They’re my friends dogs. I used to be guilty of it with Gator a bit but I’m trying not to with Brewster. In fact, with Brewster right now, he’s already doing big chains and sometimes I think I reward a little too infrequently already like with tricks and stuff. I just realized this with watching my vids and watching him get a bit flustered like “what do you want!? I already did that tons”

But I figure better than legit barking because they didn’t get the food this time right away or demanding the ball be thrown THIS SECOND.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Oddly though the barking thing is apparently new cause she never used to do it before but now does for everything and also taught the other one too now