Dog turned predator - how do I convince my husband to get rid of it?

[luukasama]

Hello again,

I can't believe I'm going to come in in DEFENSE of the OP, but here goes. You see, I saw the thread was bumped again, so I decided to take a look at the conversation (I was curious where it went). Naturally, I got extremely frustrated and upset all over again by the OP's stance. I just kept wondering WHY the OP couldn't see what looks to me to clearly be animal abuse. So I decided to look at some of her former threads - because honestly I've just been really upset by this and wanted to get a better sense of who the OP is.

This is JUST based on what I read in previous threads, but the OP is an Orthodox Jew living in Israel. When I read that a light bulb went off in my head. I was involved with a Russian Old Believer for a while (almost married him). For those unfamiliar, that's similar to Russian Orthodox (although they split long ago), and is more than a religion - it is a culture, a heritage, and a way of life. The beliefs and traditions that guide everyday life are very clear, and to him they were accepted, valued, and completely normal. To me, they were strict and suffocating because I grew up with a different set of beliefs. One of the main reasons my former fiancée and I split was due to cultural differences, including attitudes towards dogs. To me, dogs are like my children. They give me kisses and cuddle with me on the couch. To him, it was offensive and revolting that I even let them in the house. Neither of us was right or wrong - it was just a difference of perspective based on completely different cultures and backgrounds.

Now, I know NOTHING about Orthodox Jews and I am NOT making any claim that I know anything about the OP and her culture or beliefs. I am not even saying that culture or religion has anything to do with how the OP feels about her dog. I'm simply saying that when I realized the OP lived in an entirely different country it was like a splash of cold water on my face. I knew this forum was international, but it's SO easy to forget that when you're just typing away to people who don't even go by their real names. I was coming at this thread with the assumption that she was an average American who could be living down the street from me - similar backgrounds and attitudes. That was an assumption on my part and where I went wrong. Not only that, it was biased and unfair.

I didn't come to the US until I was 10, and as an adult I have travelled quite a bit and spent five years teaching in multicultural classrooms. You'd think I would be more culturally sensitive, wouldn't you? But I got wrapped up in seeing this from the dog's perspective and saw it as straightforward animal abuse. I still stand by everything I said about how the dog probably feels, but the overall picture isn't that simple. Dogs are viewed differently all over the world. Growing up my next door neighbors used to raise dogs for barbecue - totally normal in their family. So who am I to tell the OP about how she should feel about the dog? She lives halfway around the world, and expecting her to view dogs the same way I do is more than a little arrogant (even for me, lol!).

To the OP - I'm sincerely sorry for having judged and criticized you. I wish I had known more about you in relation to your situation before having commented. I still don't understand your perspective regarding the dog and I'm not sure I'm even capable of seeing it your way, but I respect the fact that you may simply see dogs differently than I do. No amount of arguing on my part can change that, and it's not right for me to even try. I do hope you find a new home for the dog, for your health and happiness as well as the dog's.

W-w-w-w-w-w-w-wait a minute. So if she was your average American, then it means it was okay to judge her, but now that you know that she's different nationality/religion, suddenly you're backpedaling and apologizing? Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's exactly what it sounds like to me. That's downright offensive. I'm not American by birth, but a naturalized citizen and I feel like that maybe I was in the same situation, this would happen to me too.

I understand being an animal lover of whatever type can result in some heated arguments, but by no means did any of you have had to rip into her like a bunch of pitbulls on a piece of meat. Despite the numerous jabs and extremely scathing replies, she's maintained her coolness (by this point, I would be feeling very violent towards someone) and her calm demeanor. It's like all of you are ignoring certain things that she told you about herself. She's pregnant, very hormonal, and has a powerful motherly instinct right now because of her unborn baby, which makes her feel like a brood mother to her little chicks as well. Maybe she has gone about the issue wrong - that is, not attacking the dog, but what would any of you do if the dog came after your chickens? Your children? Species X that you oh so love? It's the situation of that moment that counted, not all of the behavior the dog could've been taught. It's called adrenaline.

She does not deserve to be lambasted for her husband's actions, especially if he's doing these things without prior consultation. IF the situation was where she was living with a roommate, would you all be behaving like you did? I'm leaning more towards a NO. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE ANIMAL WAS HER HUSBAND'S, HER ROOMMATE'S, OR HUMAN XYZ. If her husband brought the **** dog, he should've been taking care of it, and not finding some excuse that he's too busy at work, too tired, too whatever and dumped all the responsbility of the animal's upkeep. Marriage means sharing responsiblities, but not if one person said no and the other person just did whatever the hell they wanted.

Flock Leader: sit down and firmly talk to your husband. It's not my business, so tell me to shut up but it feels like your relationship is not quite in sync. I constantly argue with my boyfriend about taking care of his cat, because it feels like to me that he's not taking care of him like I would of my cat. Herein is the difference in how we were raised and told to take care of our animals, or were used to owning them but having someone else care for their basic needs. It happens. Yes, I share the responsibility of taking care of his cat alongside mine, but that's because I'm willing. There would be no if's, and's, or but's about it if I felt that I was being saddled with something that I refuse to take part of. In an ideal situation, he would then have to keep that responsibility to himself. I would take no part of since I had refused in the first place. I cannot believe that he put you into this situation in the first place, and if I were you, I'd be upset at him for a very long time.

That dog needs to go. For your and your flock's safety. Hopefully, you can both come to an agreement that house responsibilities depend on two people, not a mooch and a caretaker. Forgive the analogy, I mean no offense, I just don't have a better way with words (and I'm brutally honest, but I don't want to be rude). I hope that the resolution to this swift and kind to everyone.

 

[bobbi-j]

W-w-w-w-w-w-w-wait a minute. So if she was your average American, then it means it was okay to judge her, but now that you know that she's different nationality/religion, suddenly you're backpedaling and apologizing? Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's exactly what it sounds like to me. That's downright offensive. I'm not American by birth, but a naturalized citizen and I feel like that maybe I was in the same situation, this would happen to me too.

I understand being an animal lover of whatever type can result in some heated arguments, but by no means did any of you have had to rip into her like a bunch of pitbulls on a piece of meat. Despite the numerous jabs and extremely scathing replies, she's maintained her coolness (by this point, I would be feeling very violent towards someone) and her calm demeanor. It's like all of you are ignoring certain things that she told you about herself. She's pregnant, very hormonal, and has a powerful motherly instinct right now because of her unborn baby, which makes her feel like a brood mother to her little chicks as well. Maybe she has gone about the issue wrong - that is, not attacking the dog, but what would any of you do if the dog came after your chickens? Your children? Species X that you oh so love? It's the situation of that moment that counted, not all of the behavior the dog could've been taught. It's called adrenaline.

She does not deserve to be lambasted for her husband's actions, especially if he's doing these things without prior consultation. IF the situation was where she was living with a roommate, would you all be behaving like you did? I'm leaning more towards a NO. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE ANIMAL WAS HER HUSBAND'S, HER ROOMMATE'S, OR HUMAN XYZ. If her husband brought the **** dog, he should've been taking care of it, and not finding some excuse that he's too busy at work, too tired, too whatever and dumped all the responsbility of the animal's upkeep. Marriage means sharing responsiblities, but not if one person said no and the other person just did whatever the hell they wanted.

Flock Leader: sit down and firmly talk to your husband. It's not my business, so tell me to shut up but it feels like your relationship is not quite in sync. I constantly argue with my boyfriend about taking care of his cat, because it feels like to me that he's not taking care of him like I would of my cat. Herein is the difference in how we were raised and told to take care of our animals, or were used to owning them but having someone else care for their basic needs. It happens. Yes, I share the responsibility of taking care of his cat alongside mine, but that's because I'm willing. There would be no if's, and's, or but's about it if I felt that I was being saddled with something that I refuse to take part of. In an ideal situation, he would then have to keep that responsibility to himself. I would take no part of since I had refused in the first place. I cannot believe that he put you into this situation in the first place, and if I were you, I'd be upset at him for a very long time.

That dog needs to go. For your and your flock's safety. Hopefully, you can both come to an agreement that house responsibilities depend on two people, not a mooch and a caretaker. Forgive the analogy, I mean no offense, I just don't have a better way with words (and I'm brutally honest, but I don't want to be rude). I hope that the resolution to this swift and kind to everyone.

Um, when commenting, it's best to read through the entire thread. OP posted an update a few days ago - they went out to feed the dog and found it dead in the bushes...

 

[luukasama]

I have read the entire thread, nearly beginning to end, but maybe I missed a few pages at the end. That STILL DOES NOT excuse the severity of some of what people have said to her. That is my main gripe point. There's a difference between despising someone for their behavior and holding their tongue back as a simple respect for another human being. Some people deserve it, and some don't. I wouldn't fault her for behaving how she did with the dog considering she's carrying a child, a very important point that a lot seem to miss.

 

[6of6chicks]

W-w-w-w-w-w-w-wait a minute. So if she was your average American, then it means it was okay to judge her, but now that you know that she's different nationality/religion, suddenly you're backpedaling and apologizing? Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's exactly what it sounds like to me. That's downright offensive. I'm not American by birth, but a naturalized citizen and I feel like that maybe I was in the same situation, this would happen to me too.

No, that's not what I said at all. I said that I realized that I was making assumptions, which led me to make judgments. It was MY narrow-minded perspective that led me to judge her harshly. When I read that she was from another country and religion, it made ME realize I was being judgmental. As I said before, I have no idea if her culture has anything to do with her attitude towards the dog. I simply said that I needed to realize/remember that not everyone sees the world the way I do - whether they live down the street or halfway across the world. For ME that "ah-ha" moment occurred when I saw where she lived, but it just as easily could have been for any other reason.

NO-WHERE did I say that it is okay to judge other Americans just because I am one too. But if you're throwing rocks at your dog? Then yeah, I'm going to have a problem with that no matter where you live or where you are from. The point of my post was to acknowledge that there MIGHT be reasons behind the actions that I'm not aware of, and maybe it MIGHT be a good idea for me to keep my mouth shut until I know all the facts of the story.

You may criticize me and say I'm "backpeddling," but I don't see it that way. I think you missed the entire point of my post. Frankly, I still think what the OP did to her dog was disgusting (to use another poster's word). NO-WHERE did I say I agreed with how she treated it. But I think there is a big difference between what you call backpeddling, and what I call personal growth. The entire point of my post was to acknowledge and admit that MY perspective was narrow-minded.

If you want to call me a hypocrite, feel free. But can you honestly say that you've NEVER made a snap judgment about someone and then later learned there might me more to the story than you realized? That's all I was trying to say in my post. I felt I had wronged the OP, and rather than run away from the thread I owned up to my mistake and apologized. Whether or not you agree with me or even understand is your business, but to try to portray me as a someone who is racist is equally offensive to me.

 

[luukasama]

Quote:
Is it still called racism if you're not looking at a person's skin color, but nationality/religion? I thought it only pertained to skin color. Anyway, I will concede here. I get what you are saying now, so I apologize for misunderstanding. I got heated myself because I can't totally fault her for the behavior. Evil and sin exists in all of us, myself included. I just wholly dislike the backlash that this presented and that the only reason she got into this situation is because her husband is negligent in his care for the animals that he randomly picks up.

 

[6of6chicks]

I have read the entire thread, nearly beginning to end, but maybe I missed a few pages at the end. That STILL DOES NOT excuse the severity of some of what people have said to her. That is my main gripe point. There's a difference between despising someone for their behavior and holding their tongue back as a simple respect for another human being. Some people deserve it, and some don't. I wouldn't fault her for behaving how she did with the dog considering she's carrying a child, a very important point that a lot seem to miss.

Seriously - go back and actually READ the entire thread. Every post. I think if you do that you might notice that some of us started out actually SUPPORTING the OP. She even gave me an ovation for my first reply. The "severity" of the conversation built over time, and there were equally valid points on both sides for WHY it went the way it did.

I think a point that YOU seem to have missed is that you are judging her just as much as anyone else. I focused on the treatment of the dog, and maybe I was wrong for that, but you felt perfectly free to comment on the state of her marriage. IMO that is frankly NONE of your business any more than it was mine to comment about her attitude towards the dog. I thought the OP needed to take responsibility for what happened in her home because I thought she should take responsibility for the DOG, but I would NEVER tell someone that their relationship wasn't "in sync." Who are you to tell her whether or not her marriage is working? I'd also be careful about labeling all pregnant women as "hormonal" - yes, your body changes during pregnancy. It doesn't mean you lose your mind and become unable to control yourself. Personally, I find that assumption a bit insulting as well.

Just because you slammed into this argument in defense of the OP does NOT mean your motivations are any "better" than the rest of us. Be careful making judgments before you have all the facts!

 

[luukasama]

Seriously - go back and actually READ the entire thread. Every post. I think if you do that you might notice that some of us started out actually SUPPORTING the OP. She even gave me an ovation for my first reply. The "severity" of the conversation built over time, and there were equally valid points on both sides for WHY it went the way it did.

I think a point that YOU seem to have missed is that you are judging her just as much as anyone else. I focused on the treatment of the dog, and maybe I was wrong for that, but you felt perfectly free to comment on the state of her marriage. IMO that is frankly NONE of your business any more than it was mine to comment about her attitude towards the dog. I thought the OP needed to take responsibility for what happened in her home because I thought she should take responsibility for the DOG, but I would NEVER tell someone that their relationship wasn't "in sync." Who are you to tell her whether or not her marriage is working? I'd also be careful about labeling all pregnant women as "hormonal" - yes, your body changes during pregnancy. It doesn't mean you lose your mind and become unable to control yourself. Personally, I find that assumption a bit insulting as well.

Just because you slammed into this argument in defense of the OP does NOT mean your motivations are any "better" than the rest of us. Be careful making judgments before you have all the facts!

You're right and I will step back and admit that. Flock Leader, I hope I did not offend you with what I said. It really wasn't my place and until my nose was pointed in that direction, I didn't see it myself.

I did actually read every post in the thread, like I said, minus maybe a page or two off the end. What I remember was just a lot of anger, and felt that it was a little misguided. One thing that I will not do is reread the entire thread every time I go back to it. However, I will be more careful in the future and I thank you for guiding me back.

 

[6of6chicks]

Is it still called racism if you're not looking at a person's skin color, but nationality/religion? I thought it only pertained to skin color. Anyway, I will concede here. I get what you are saying now, so I apologize for misunderstanding. I got heated myself because I can't totally fault her for the behavior. Evil and sin exists in all of us, myself included. I just wholly dislike the backlash that this presented and that the only reason she got into this situation is because her husband is negligent in his care for the animals that he randomly picks up.

When you respond to someone with judgment, criticism, anger, or hatred because of their nationality or religion, then YES - that is racism.

When you respond to someone with open-mindedness, understanding, and curiosity because of their nationality or religion, then NO - that is not racism. It's called cultural awareness.

When you realize that you MAY have judged someone BASED on their nationality/religion, but realize you were wrong and apologize - that's called personal growth.

In my case I judged based on an assumption of the SAME nationality. That was just as wrong as if I had judged someone based on a different nationality.

No-one is perfect and everyone is guilty of narrow-minded thinking at one point or another, even if NO malice or harm was intended. I think the key to be aware of WHY you think the way you do so that you are able to change your thinking when you need to.

I choose to think of this as a life lesson in the hopes that next time I won't be so quick to judge. But please understand - realizing WHY someone acts the way they do does NOT necessarily excuse their behavior. Just because the OP *may* have reasons for abusing her dog that I can sympathize with does NOT mean I condone what she did. Animal abuse is still abuse no matter what your reasons are. But like I said, understanding and acceptance are two different things. The OP may have understood what I was trying to say when I apologized. That certainly doesn't mean she accepted my apology, and she had every right not to.

 

[6of6chicks]

You're right and I will step back and admit that. Flock Leader, I hope I did not offend you with what I said. It really wasn't my place and until my nose was pointed in that direction, I didn't see it myself.

I did actually read every post in the thread, like I said, minus maybe a page or two off the end. What I remember was just a lot of anger, and felt that it was a little misguided. One thing that I will not do is reread the entire thread every time I go back to it. However, I will be more careful in the future and I thank you for guiding me back.

Well, I owe you an apology too. As soon as I hit "submit" I realized I was lashing out in anger and that I was being unnecessarily harsh. I just felt so attacked by your original post that, like you said, I got "heated" too. The whole thread just seems to have brought out the worst in people, myself included!! That's why I originally bailed out of it - just too much stress and too many opposing viewpoints.

Part of me does feel really bad for the OP and her situation, but the other part of me has a hard time not seeing this from the dog's perspective. But that's because I raise dogs like children, so I'll be the first to admit I am REALLY biased when it comes to my four-legged kids. It was just when I remembered all the fights my ex-fiancé and I had about dogs that the light-bulb went off and I realized how pig-headed I was being.

What a mess! Hopefully no hard feelings. I didn't mean to snap at you and I'm sorry that my temper got the best of me. Obviously that's a work in progress, lol!

 

[Flock Leader]

Flock Leader, I hope I did not offend you with what I said.

Not at all. I thank you for your support, and some of the things you said were spot on. It's true that the dog issue was rooted in a deeper problem (being inconsiderate). It's also true that at the moment, I'm what you'd call "hormonal". I'm extremely sleep deprived and stressed out because of the pregnancy, the house move, my husband's unemployment, our current expenses, the situation in our country (calling Mom. "Wait, I need to get to the bomb shelter. Talk later). And a host of other factors completely unrelated to the dog.

Nevertheless, I'm very sorry it all ended the way it did, with the dog having no chance to experience a better life.