Doing some research on feeding habits of chickens - Please help me!

[WillK]

I can't imagine a chicken putting itself on a "diet". If there's mealworms, there won't be for long. The only thing I can imagine a chicken measureing out for itself is oyster shell; not quite as tasty as mealworms

. I think they would have to be measured out for them, and then there's the problem of pecking order; some chickens won't get as much. This is a really mind engaging subject!

My chickens aren't too interested in the red wigglers right now. So I will have to keep offering them. It's been suggested that they would enjoy them more at a specific time of year like spring. In the same way early spring when humming birds have babies they catch flies under my porch to feed them. While the rest of the year their diet consist of nectar. I was shocked the first time I saw hummers catching flies and had to research because it went against everything I knew.

My chickens don't eat every bug they come in contact with. We are in the PNW and there are tons of greens and bugs. But in no way do I believe they would self regulate meal worms. That's like chicken crack cocaine!

Since my chickens free range, I feed them free choice commercial flock raiser with 20% protein. I also ferment it which increases the nutritional value and digestion/absorption. Check the link in my signature line.

I used to volunteer at a zoo rehab. It is important that animals in captivity get the right nutrients. For people who don't free range they would need to be more exacting on their values.

I don't think I want to go full on trying to make their diet. I have 48 mixed age and gender chickens. And there is definitely the pecking order issue. So I have plenty of feed stations for the grain and I spread the sprouted barley and other stuff to different areas of the property to help combat the pecking order from keeping anyone from getting some of the good stuff.

The reason I got live meal worm is the nutritional value is much higher than dried. And financially it was just more feasible to raise them since it's fairly simple after you get past the

factor. I've been told by a hubby's co worker that feeding to many meal worms made their eggs taste off. Which made me a little paranoid since I have no control over how many bugs my chickens eat when they are on pasture. But meh.... I haven't experienced any off flavor. I feed out all life stages, but only as treats at this point.

I will continue with the red wigglers until I get to try them in a different season. My previous flock loved them, but we had way less bugs in the dessert than we do now. And the only other insect I plan to grow at this point is the meal worm life stages. But hey, I learn something new every day and who knows what the future holds?!

Thanks for your responses!
The pecking order issue is something that I'll have to combat. How are you currently dealing with this issue? I suppose keeping 48 chickens its easy to spread the feed around to ensure that most the chickens get a fair share, but with 2-4 chickens in a small garden, it becomes a completely different challenge!

EggSighted - what is your reason to grow mealworm over any other insects? I've had to make a hard decision on what bug to develop a product for and settled on mealworm due to the widely available research/nutritional values and the ease of farming, but it's a shame they have a long life cycle (as opposed to BSFL etc..)

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I hadn't heard o BSFL until you just asked...

So I looked it up and I am going to have to look into it!

But we only have so much as far as food waste goes. I'm loaded with poo, but don't see myself harvesting from that.

If that's even what they eat.

Must do research now!

It's true the life cycle of mealies is long. I have a huge colony, started with 45,000. Right now I really don't have much to feed out because everything pupated at once. So I have a bunch of micro worms right now. It was a learning curve but I expect it to be operational again within a couple months.

I tried many different substrates and dog food was not good. They loved it. But I guess it needed to be ground down. And it ended up molding pretty bad. Did chicken feed crumble and they were hard to sift out. Guess you are supposed to grind everything down. I tried those things because I was told you could gut load them and make them even more nutritious for your chickens. I don't know if that's true or not. I ended up settling on wheat bran and it is working well. I microwave it for a couple minutes and let it stay hot for a while to kill of any grain mites or eggs that might be in there.

And yesterday when I pulled little red wigglers out of the water bowl (they always get in it when it rains) one of my girls was really enjoying them. Sometimes that's all it takes is one saying "I like this" before they all join in. Problem I have now is that the chickens eat almost every scrap of veg that we have. So I am going to be using only onion tops mostly in the red wiggler bin, since that's the one thing that stays behind to rot on the ground.

 

[PeepersMama]

My buff orps were always the best worm digging buddies I had. You'd push back a shovel full and they'd all peck sixty different spots, when I only saw one or two big worms! They'd chase off anyone else that tried to get in their hole (not that many did). I miss them

 

[WillK]

I hadn't heard o BSFL until you just asked...

So I looked it up and I am going to have to look into it!

But we only have so much as far as food waste goes. I'm loaded with poo, but don't see myself harvesting from that.

If that's even what they eat.

Must do research now!

It's true the life cycle of mealies is long. I have a huge colony, started with 45,000. Right now I really don't have much to feed out because everything pupated at once. So I have a bunch of micro worms right now. It was a learning curve but I expect it to be operational again within a couple months.

I tried many different substrates and dog food was not good. They loved it. But I guess it needed to be ground down. And it ended up molding pretty bad. Did chicken feed crumble and they were hard to sift out. Guess you are supposed to grind everything down. I tried those things because I was told you could gut load them and make them even more nutritious for your chickens. I don't know if that's true or not. I ended up settling on wheat bran and it is working well. I microwave it for a couple minutes and let it stay hot for a while to kill of any grain mites or eggs that might be in there.

And yesterday when I pulled little red wigglers out of the water bowl (they always get in it when it rains) one of my girls was really enjoying them. Sometimes that's all it takes is one saying "I like this" before they all join in. Problem I have now is that the chickens eat almost every scrap of veg that we have. So I am going to be using only onion tops mostly in the red wiggler bin, since that's the one thing that stays behind to rot on the ground.

Yep, seems like lots of benefits, but the fact that they fly (and are known to escape!) is putting me off for a consumer product. Lots of potential as soon as people figure out how to reliably mate BSFL in non-native areas though..
How long are your life cycles roughly? From Egg to Harvest? I will be doing some research on optimal temperature/humidity to attempt to speed this up as much as possible, but it still seems to vary from 2 to 3 months.

The ability to use dry substrate is a big draw for me - if users can wash out their empty trays without seeing bits of moldy apple and dog food then I see this as a win. It's a shame about having an extra step for the user by having to microwave it, maybe that's something I can look into.

I'm looking at raising around 1500 mealworm in a tray, some sources state that a tray only an inch or two larger than a piece of A4 paper should suffice - would you agree with this?

My buff orps were always the best worm digging buddies I had. You'd push back a shovel full and they'd all peck sixty different spots, when I only saw one or two big worms! They'd chase off anyone else that tried to get in their hole (not that many did). I miss them

No risk of the mealworm escaping then, that's good news!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

You hit on one of my concerns, which is having things in non native environments. I would hate to have anything I did to somehow introduce invasive species into areas they don't belong. When I looked up the BSFL, they had like a little butterfly pavilion type thing to keep them from flying away.

One thing about raising red wigglers is that I live in the PNW. Maybe the reason my birds here don't go as crazy for them is because I can look down at almost any square inch of my yard and find 3 or 4 of them. So maybe they are too readily available in the environment for my chickens to care if I offer them or not.

Which is another thing I have to wonder about the fodder as well. Is there any benefit when my birds free range on lusciousness all day? Am I saving on feed or adding to it? My fodder did result in a 600 to 700% increase in weight over the seed. But sometimes when it's raining the birds like to stay under cover which is a good time to feed out barley sprouts. They never seem to focus to hard on clearing most things, they eat what they want and come back later for more (except meal worms).

I had to switch from apples or carrots to cabbage leaves for moisture because it molded too fast in my environment. Celery also works well for me. And the side smell from the celery is better than some others. I have used broccoli stems as well. When using chicken feed or any other animal feed product, it is important to make sure it doesn't have DE in it as that will kill the colony.

I haven't had mites show up in my wheat yet but I zap it before using in my bins anyways as a precaution. Some have said even with heating they got grain mites.

The life cycles on mealies vary greatly depending on many factors which I believe include nutrition, moisture, and temperature. I don't have an accurate cycle rate because I get off track sometimes and neglect things. Plus they were pupating so fast inside that I moved them out, which changes my growth rate. I think the Darkling beetles live only about 6 months once they reach beetle stage. And I know it takes the microscopic eggs about 1 month to be able to see tiny worms. Maybe a couple months after that before they are feeding size. And one temperature factor many don't consider is that the worms do make some of their own heat. So if you get large enough masses like I did the room temp might not give you an accurate outlook.

I probably will never try to make my own complete ration since I'm mostly just having fun and it is a hugely multifaceted issue in relation to savings verses time (I consider my time more valuable than gold. Once it's gone you can't make more.) and nutrient value.

It's true the meal worms don't take up much space. But I had to move them out because the frass they put off was causing respiratory symptoms. It is a known issue and might be less of a problem if your colony is small. The frass can also be used in the garden as fertilizer.

I apologize if my statements are all mixed up or if I din't answer the questions you were trying to get at. Just let me know if I missed something.

 

[WillK]

Quote:

Is there any benefit feeding them mealworm? Well I'd argue so.

• There is an increasing number of more 'urban' hobbyist chicken keepers living in smaller houses in cities. More store bought chicken coops are being sold (the Eglu specifically) which points towards less farmer/diy types raising poultry and more the average joe citygoer.
• Most people raising chickens have identified that they raise chickens to be more self-sufficient (or like the idea that they are making an effort to be more self-sufficient) - which makes it a shame that feed for chickens is being shipped across the world (soy is almost completely manufactured in Argentina/Brazil). I'm aware that Soy takes a large amount of land (to feed each EU citizen their yearly intake of eggs, 25m^2 of land is required per person, as well as large water and energy requirements).
• Insect protein is key to allowing our high protein intakes in the West to continue, but if we won't eat it directly then how else can we get it into our diets? Chickens!
• Research on mealworm replacing soy protein have already pointed towards increased behaviour, quicker bonding between the pet and feeder, and maybe (maybe) farming mealworm will persuade some kids that insects aren't as weird and inedible as people believe now.

It's amazing to see industrial insect farming taking off currently for use as feed, but it strikes me as a bit crazy that as industrial poultry farms are turning to sustainable insect protein, hobbyist poultry farmers who are likely far more conscious about sustainability and the environment as a whole, are the ones that will continue using soy as a protein source. If I can make it easy for them to switch, then I think that I might be able to change this.

I'd appreciate any holes you can pick into this, this is really just a quick summary of how I narrowed down on an idea during the early research phase.

I had to switch from apples or carrots to cabbage leaves for moisture because it molded too fast in my environment. Celery also works well for me. And the side smell from the celery is better than some others. I have used broccoli stems as well. When using chicken feed or any other animal feed product, it is important to make sure it doesn't have DE in it as that will kill the colony.

Great point about DE, I've just looked it up and will be sure to keep additives and chemicals in mind regarding what feed is suitable.

Yep, time and overall effort is probably my main focus in terms of building a solution, I'm trying to identify the points in insect farming that are least preferred so that I can limit the time spent doing undesirable tasks - I hope that I will be able to solve enough of the problems to make the solution attractive enough. You mention problems with frass, this along with the 'eww' factor of keeping worms in the house, is a reason why the solution will likely be an outdoors product. Either focusing on placement in an outhouse (garage/shed) or perhaps placement in the pen with a form of hopper/feeder.

Thanks again, this really is very helpful!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I get the benefits of growing your own meal worms. Especially for people who aren't able to freer range. I don't have any holes to pick in your statements but will ask if I come up with anything since I think you truly are trying to get something figured out.

I live on the coast. My temp fluctuates only 10 degrees. I think the hard part about people keeping them in a shed or garage is going to be the temperature effecting the worms. In the desert our garage must have been 120 degrees or more in summer and 30's in winter. Neither is conducive to much life.

My question about being worth it was specifically for myself. Living in the PNW, and having enough land for my chickens to free range without stripping everything is a huge plus. And makes me wonder if the availability of bugs (here) diminishes the chickens interest in the red wigglers specifically, they never pass on a meal worm. Which also makes me wonder if you will be able to feed free choice without grinding the mealies or something to stop the chickens from gorging themselves. Because protein is not the only thing in a feed, will the chickens still eat whatever else is mixed in as well? Or will they be lacking other nutrient because of their focus on the meal worms? And also would like to see if the high bug protein does effect the flavor of the meat and eggs in any way. Seems some trial would be in order.

I'm not game, but insect protein does seem to be a part of the future even for human consumption. And one of my main concerns is to make sure I don't introduce an invasive species to a new habitat.

I am not a fan of soy. It is hotly contested with Monsanto and everything. But it is also high in estrogen which isn't good for those who may be predisposed to breast cancer (personal opinion) or other hormonal issues.

 

[WillK]

I get the benefits of growing your own meal worms. Especially for people who aren't able to freer range. I don't have any holes to pick in your statements but will ask if I come up with anything since I think you truly are trying to get something figured out.

I live on the coast. My temp fluctuates only 10 degrees. I think the hard part about people keeping them in a shed or garage is going to be the temperature effecting the worms. In the desert our garage must have been 120 degrees or more in summer and 30's in winter. Neither is conducive to much life.

My question about being worth it was specifically for myself. Living in the PNW, and having enough land for my chickens to free range without stripping everything is a huge plus. And makes me wonder if the availability of bugs (here) diminishes the chickens interest in the red wigglers specifically, they never pass on a meal worm. Which also makes me wonder if you will be able to feed free choice without grinding the mealies or something to stop the chickens from gorging themselves. Because protein is not the only thing in a feed, will the chickens still eat whatever else is mixed in as well? Or will they be lacking other nutrient because of their focus on the meal worms? And also would like to see if the high bug protein does effect the flavor of the meat and eggs in any way. Seems some trial would be in order.

I'm not game, but insect protein does seem to be a part of the future even for human consumption. And one of my main concerns is to make sure I don't introduce an invasive species to a new habitat.

I am not a fan of soy. It is hotly contested with Monsanto and everything. But it is also high in estrogen which isn't good for those who may be predisposed to breast cancer (personal opinion) or other hormonal issues.

Temperature and humidity are things that will affect the performance and yield of the farm and are things I will be looking at pretty seriously in order to minimise the time of each life cycle - this brings issues with energy use but I think creating a form of microclimate will be worth it if I can provide adequate insulation, and minimise user interaction with the product (thus not opening up the internals/worms to the elements more than once a day/every few days).

I completely understand your point, the feeding element is going to require a lot of testing regarding chicken behaviour etc. A simple solution would be just to feed the mealworms separately to the normal feed (corn, wheat etc..) but this obviously means more user interaction/inconvenience. A hopper could be used in the design, automatically dropping out feed, with the user triggering the daily mealworm output.
I would prefer to feed live mealworm, it seems there are nutritional benefits to live mealworm, and I think it is important that the device is self contained and as simple as possible, any processing would complicate the product further, or require an oven etc to dry. I think big batches work best for diy farms at home, as people can grow tens of thousands in the summer and dry them out for use in the winter - but if I can skirt round these problems it would be great to have a constant flow of mealworm.

This is certainly a problem area, especially considering how chickens will not share the worms evenly. This is something I'll only be able to solve by working with hobbyist chicken farmers!

Will

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Yes, live verses dried is no comparison. And getting the chickens to share, probably the hardest. But if we are talking hobbiest, we like the interaction with our chickens. Chicken TV is the best.

Maybe people who do deep litter can store the bin above it for the warmth. Has to be screened to keep out moths. I think I might actually have a couple spiders hunting my set up.

SO are you thinking something similar to the red wiggler set ups? I think your idea is great, but definitely a tough market.

A quick link, I don't agree with all the info but it is still very informative in general...
http://www.exoticnutrition.com/howtorame.html

 

[WillK]

I'm set on mealworm now, using a series of containers to allow for a near constant flow of adult larvae, rather than storing big batches of mealworm. I actually found that link a few days ago, I've printed it off and it's been a real help!