Don't understand the importance of "non GMO"

[shortgrass]

According to the US Department of Agriculture, all certified organic MUST be non-GMO. If it's GMO, it is not and cannot legally be sold as organic. http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.html

Can you give examples as to why selective breeding is different from genetic modification, particularly healthwise, other than "it just is"? Both are changing an organism's genetics in a way that it would not naturally occur. I posted about this previously, giving examples of the side effects of the genetic mutations that we have bred into animals, and we have done it to plants as well, on the same level, purely through selective breeding.

Yes. See " CERTIFIED ORGANIC" vs organically produced Well, plain and simple, inject your child with DNA from a cat so that he/she can see at night... Oops forgot that cats are susceptible to say, Flu. next thing ya know, your kid dies from a scratch in the yard because of dirty soil and flu virus... Next, BREED your kid to another kid with immunity to it that can see at night, and your grandkids are immune...with 20/20 vision.. Not saying you're going to eat you kid... It's late, I couldn't think of a better example

 

[MeepBeep]

According to the US Department of Agriculture, all certified organic MUST be non-GMO. If it's GMO, it is not and cannot legally be sold as organic. 
http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?contentidonly=true&contentid=organic-agriculture.html

Go read the actual USDA laws and guidelines carefully...

Mutagenic and Cell Fusion GMOs produced in labs can and are in fact able to be sold as organic...

What can't be sold as organic is transgenic GMOs...

In the end it's all semantics, they are all GMOs by definition, they are just from differing genetic modification processes...

 

[torilovessmiles]

Yes. See " CERTIFIED ORGANIC" vs organically produced

Well, plain and simple, inject your child with DNA from a cat so that he/she can see at night... Oops forgot that cats are susceptible to say, Flu. next thing ya know, your kid dies from a scratch in the yard because of dirty soil and flu virus... Next, BREED your kid to another kid with immunity to it that can see at night, and your grandkids are immune...with 20/20 vision..

Not saying you're going to eat you kid... It's late, I couldn't think of a better example

It cannot be "organically produced" while being GMO, by definition. If its a GMO, it's not organic. It doesn't matter what you, personally, consider organic.

Your comparison makes no sense. You have more control over individual genes with genetic modification, so you're more likely to get negative effects through selective breeding. With GM, you're changing one gene, one variable. With selective breeding, you have to worry about genes you can't see. This is why all large dog breeds are subject to hip dysplasia, why domestic plants are easily overtaken by weeds, and why laying breeds of chickens get osteoporosis at 3 years old. By selecting an individual gene to breed, you ignore what else you may be changing. In GM, you only change one single thing, while the rest remains the same.
Also, not all genetic modifications are taken from another species. Most are simply turning genes on and off.

 

[torilovessmiles]

Go read the actual USDA laws and guidelines carefully...

Mutagenic and Cell Fusion GMOs produced in labs can and are in fact able to be sold as organic...

What can't be sold as organic is transgenic GMOs...

In the end it's all semantics, they are all GMOs by definition, they are just from differing genetic modification processes...

True, there are exceptions. But you have to take care to get those specific exceptions. The same as organic pesticides and fertilizers that are deemed natural and organic. You have to make sure you only use those things if you use any though, or it is not considered organic.

 

[shortgrass]

It cannot be "organically produced" while being GMO, by definition. If its a GMO, it's not organic. It doesn't matter what you, personally, consider organic. 

Your comparison makes no sense. You have more control over individual genes with genetic modification, so you're more likely to get negative effects through selective breeding. With GM, you're changing one gene, one variable. With selective breeding, you have to worry about genes you can't see. This is why all large dog breeds are subject to hip dysplasia, why domestic plants are easily overtaken by weeds, and why laying breeds of chickens get osteoporosis at 3 years old. By selecting an individual gene to breed, you ignore what else you may be changing. In GM, you only change one single thing, while the rest remains the same. 
Also, not all genetic modifications are taken from another species. Most are simply turning genes on and off. 

That is simply not correct. Too much emphasis on your concept of "labeling".... GMO CAN in fact, be organically produced lol ask the other million organic farmers that do it to get your beloved " free range organic" eggs on the shelf... There's about a 3% allotment on that... It's either that, or theres an awful lot of misinformation floating around...


I'd make a bet on which it is

And no, actually, its not just ONE gene. Royndvup ready corn has been modified with BT. To resist herbicide.. Now, dobyou REALLY believe that the ONLY thing that the BT is doing is helping the corn by killing everything that chews on it?

So then, why was is modified with an insecticide to make it resistant to an herbicide?

See, I asked my folks the same question oh...7 or so years ago, then we had this same discussion thats transpiring now, so been here, done this... Now the whole place is producing CERTIFIED ORGANIC ALFALFA and ORGANIC PRODUCED corn and wheat.

It takes 3 years of NO CHEMICAL application to the soil in order to start raising "CERTIFIED" organic crops. In the meantime, those 3 years are producing the same seed, the same feed etc. Just GMO seed because its hybrid GMO. Can't produce CERTIFIED ORGANIC without organic SEED. Hence, the crop is still ORGANICALLY PRODUCED.

Still, selective breeding is just a better but longer way around trying to force a species to "adapt" to man made chemicals, and I personally, was uncomfortable feeding my kids corn with BT toxin in it. And I knew there were others that would feel the same way...

Lol tell you what, YOU try to talk 2 cattle ranchers in their 70s to turn over the land to you so you can "screw it up with all your organic nonsense"... Yep, my dad's words right there lol

 

[MeepBeep]

True, there are exceptions. But you have to take care to get those specific exceptions.

Take care? Please do explain that further...

Do you honestly believe (or agree) that shooting a plant full of copious amounts of radiation and hoping it changes some random gene that might or might not alter something to be 'taking' care' and worthy of exception and thus organic?

How about soaking seeds in a slurry of toxic chemicals again hoping to cause a random gene mutation or not, to be 'taking care' and thus organic?

Or last but certainly not least, how about breaking down the cells walls with either a slurry of toxic chemicals or electricity, while hoping two or more of those cells might join together and create a new favorable gene mutation 'taking care' and and organic?

The USDA says all those processes are AOK and an organic, non-GMO processes as long as you follow a few rules...

According to the USDA all those above are not Genetically Modifying the Organism processes?

I call semantics...

 

[torilovessmiles]

That is simply not correct. Too much emphasis on your concept of "labeling".... GMO CAN in fact, be organically produced lol

ask the other million organic farmers that do it to get your beloved " free range organic" eggs on the shelf... There's about a 3% allotment on that... It's either that, or theres an awful lot of misinformation floating around...


I'd make a bet on which it is

And no, actually, its not just ONE gene. Royndvup ready corn has been modified with BT. To resist herbicide.. Now, dobyou REALLY believe that the ONLY thing that the BT is doing is helping the corn by killing everything that chews on it?

So then, why was is modified with an insecticide to make it resistant to an herbicide?

See, I asked my folks the same question oh...7 or so years ago, then we had this same discussion thats transpiring now, so been here, done this... Now the whole place is producing CERTIFIED ORGANIC ALFALFA and ORGANIC PRODUCED corn and wheat.

It takes 3 years of NO CHEMICAL application to the soil in order to start raising "CERTIFIED" organic crops. In the meantime, those 3 years are producing the same seed, the same feed etc. Just GMO seed because its hybrid GMO. Can't produce CERTIFIED ORGANIC without organic SEED. Hence, the crop is still ORGANICALLY PRODUCED.

Still, selective breeding is just a better but longer way around trying to force a species to "adapt" to man made chemicals, and I personally, was uncomfortable feeding my kids corn with BT toxin in it. And I knew there were others that would feel the same way...

Lol tell you what, YOU try to talk 2 cattle ranchers in their 70s to turn over the land to you so you can "screw it up with all your organic nonsense"... Yep, my dad's words right there lol

Edited due to hostility. rough day

I do not consider the "free range" eggs on the shelf "free range". However, I know those hens aren't raised in battery cages. If your chickens exceed those requirements, then they are considered free range. However, if they fall short of meeting them, they are not. If you keep a chicken in your basement, you cannot call your eggs "free range." If you use GMO seeds, chemical application within the past three years, or non-organic seeds, then you fall short of the criteria and your produce is not organic and you cannot sell it as organic. If you want to consider it organic for your eating, fine. But in selling and in discussion, it is not organic.

 

[torilovessmiles]

Take care? Please do explain that further...

Do you honestly believe (or agree) that shooting a plant full of copious amounts of radiation and hoping it changes some random gene that might or might not alter something to be 'taking' care' and worthy of exception and thus organic?

How about soaking seeds in a slurry of toxic chemicals again hoping to cause a random gene mutation or not, to be 'taking care' and thus organic?

Or last but certainly not least, how about breaking down the cells walls with either a slurry of toxic chemicals or electricity, while hoping two or more of those cells might join together and create a new favorable gene mutation 'taking care' and and organic?

The USDA says all those processes are AOK and an organic, non-GMO processes as long as you follow a few rules...

According to the USDA all those above are not Genetically Modifying the Organism processes?

I call semantics...

My bad, I meant make sure you are only buying those types, or completely non-GMO. They must meet or exceed criteria, or it cannot be considered organic.

Also, would you care to link to the pages which the USDA states which types can be used in organic farming? I trust your judgement but I would like to read them myself

 

[MeepBeep]

I do not consider the "free range" eggs on the shelf "free range". However, I know those hens aren't raised in battery cages. If your chickens exceed those requirements, then they are considered free range. However, if they fall short of meeting them, they are not.  If you keep a chicken in your basement, you cannot call your eggs "free range."

You are incorrect...

You very well could call the eggs from the chickens in your basement 'free range' as the USDA definition and labeling laws only apply to birds grown for meat... The USDA 'free range' labeling is not applicable to laying birds or their eggs, thus you are legally free to call the eggs 'free range' for no other purpose than to create a warm fuzzy feeling in the buyers stomach, or because you like the way it looks on the egg carton...

And even for meat birds the USDA labeling requirements only mandate that the meat bird had access to the outdoors, it does not mandate a duration, an amount of outdoor space, the type of turf or ground, or even that the birds ever ventured outside at all... You simply need to have given them access to an outside area... So again if you are raising chickens in your basement and you open the window for a few minutes each day, and then close it, you have in fact provide them access to the outdoors and thus you met the USDA legal requirement to legally label the chickesn as free range, even if none of the birds ever ventured out to your gravel lined 2 square foot window well area in that 2 minutes a day you left the window open...

 

[Dusty Chicken]

I think it is time for some definitions:

"Certified Organic": This is a legal term. You are not allowed to use this term unless you have met certain criteria & have been "certified" by the state to call your products 'certified organic'. To gain this status you must grow organically for a number of years before you can become 'certified organic'.

"Organically Produced" or "Organically Grown": These terms refer to how the crop was actually grown in the field. Just because a crop is grown organically does not qualify it to be called "certified organic". A crop that is organically grown is typically grown using pesticides and practices that are considered to be qualified for 'certified organic' crops. A GMO seed can be planted & organically grown but it could never be "Certified Organic".

Selective Breeding: This is a practice that is as old as civilization. Humans have been practicing selective breeding knowingly since we began collecting seeds to plant. Nature by default selects who germinates in wet condition vs. dry conditions on the mere circumstance of which seeds germinate. The ones that do grow then breed and their offspring are even more able to adapt to the environment. Humans quickly understood this principle & stepped in to try to control the breeding. We have set up sophisticated breeding situations to pick for color, height, shape, etc..... the list is endless. These seeds include everything to open pollinated, heirloom, F1 hybrids, etc...

GMO: This is when a plant & a bacteria have sex (or other out of family cross breeding by lab technique). I know that sounds outlandish but it is actually the truth. There is no way nature could ever produce this seed. The only way this seed can be initially produced is in a lab. It would seem that the seed would be sterile but it is not. It can cross pollinate with other corn crops & the genes can show up in the offspring. If the genes are found in a crop that you are growing & you have not paid the patent royalties to grow these genes that the patent holding company can sue you for patent infringement. This makes the old time practice of seed saving very challenging if your neighbor is growing GMO crops.

GMOs have not been in our food system that long yet they already dominate the food industry. When I first started hearing about GMOs I thought the discussion was regarding selective breeding. I scoffed at this paranoia. I have a degree in Horticulture and felt very confident in my knowledge of plant breeding. I really don't know what is safe & what is not. My concern is that we do not have any good non biased science to back up the claims that this is a safe practice. Until we have that knowledge I would like products labeled so at least I have a choice of what I am purchasing. In the meantime I have no choice but to buy "organic certified" product to avoid GMO crops.