So as long as we are sharing photos of laced birds...my Barnevelders.
I love the lacing on my boy...here is a close up of his wing.
I love the lacing on my boy...here is a close up of his wing.
Double Lacing
- Thread starter Resolution
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- Sep 28, 2008
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GASP!!!!!
Double silver lacing... Keep it coming folks... I am nearly blind
- Thread starter
- #33
Amazing stuff.
Henk asked for a reference regarding the origin of Sebright Bantam - or more specifically- the origination of the henny feathering in that lineage.
Notes from a journal on hereditary genetics written by Dr. Iwamiya are a bit hard to follow.
Here's what I've been able to procure-There was a gentleman named Beenhakker of a family of merchants very involved with VOC (Dutch East India Company). (Gouverneur ?) Meneer Beenhakker was amongst other things, a dedicated collector of fine art, hollowed eggs, preserved insects and birds. His interest in keeping living birds alive for any amount of time was fairly limited-save for a few pheasant like birds, parrots and domestic fowl.
Through his travels and interest, Beenhakker became involved with a collector of chickens from Dejima Japan by the name of Marques Takeshi Yamashima who paid extremely high prices for imported fowl from the Spice Islands and beyond. Beenhakker, along with other merchants of his day, was constantly searching for that one unusual specimen- that one rooster or hen that defied the imagination. It was big business. Beenhakker had been at the trade of exotic fowl for nearly half a century and his father's grandfathers were also in lucrative trade between Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Japan.
In the ports of Western Sumatra and Western Java it was well know that a certain fighting cock had been developed with short tails of very small size and an unusual voice and comb. Indonesian Red JF derived strains of fighting game were often the mothers of this cross. This was a miniature - even smaller than Junglefowl females. The miniaturization phenomenon is common of most breed types maternally descended- those hatched from the female hybrid between Sri Lanka JF and domestic fowl. Very few of the tiny eggs produced by these hybrid hens hatched and those that did tended to be very small themselves. Hybrids with a specific Asil race had more successful hatching rate due to the % of Grey JF ancestry.
Female Grey Junglefowl
Female Sri Lanka Junglefowl
Female Sebright Bantam Silver
Female Sebright Bantam Gold
Juvenile Male Grey Junglefowl
Male Sri Lanka Junglefowl
Sri Lanka and Grey JF are very closely related. Indeed, their females are similar in colouration and pattern. The males look nothing like one another. This strain of fighting cock was notable in that it had a short tail. It was also unusual in its plumage, like that of a bamboo fowl -(like that of a partridge or a female JF).
Iwamiya's notes include reference to BeenHakker's selective breeding experiments conducted on one of his estates in Dutch Indonesia and Yamashima's purchases from Beehakker.
Iwamiya took special notice of ongoing hereditary research going on in Europe in his day. Yamashima and Beenhakker were up to their poultry trade in the late 1600's through the 1700's. Yamashima's collection remained intact through much of the 1800's. His stock may have provided some genetics in the creation of the Minohiki Saddle Dragger. Iwamiya inherited what was left of the Yamshima collection in post WWll. Very little of it remained in tact. Dr. Iwamiya's maintain some of this collection even today
Getting back to hereditary research-
Iwamiya was keen to learn about experimental hybridization trials carried out by Delacour and Ghigi. He recreated these experiments. These trials revealed that F1 hybrids between Grey and Sri Lanka JF produce offspring intermediate between parental species. Bred interse these F2 hybrids tend to produce males with very few secondary sexual characteristics. The roosters are "henny" in phenotype. The female was invariably Grey and the sire Sri Lanka. I don't recall what came from the reciprocal cross but the Sri Lanka sired progeny hatched from Grey hens produced unusually marked birds. I do also recall thata form of the frizzle mutation was not uncommon in progeny produced from F2 sires.
Fertility was not particularly strong with the F2 generation. Those hens that did lay at all produced very small eggs. An even smaller percentage of the eggs produced developed normally and hatched. From the f3 hens better fertility was established through recombination with various bantam breeds. The progeny were invariably tiny. The results of the experiments were valuable in that they gave an indication of what the ancestor of Bantam breeds probably was made from. Likewise, something may have been learned about the common ancestor of these junglefowl species. When two species of any animal are successfully bred together, they do not produce anything new, but rather spit out throw backs- the common ancestor of both parental species. That common Junglefowl ancestor may have been more similar to the Asiatic Bamboo Fowl (Bamboo Partridge) or to an African Francolin than to a typical Junglefowl in shape, size and plumage morphology. Regardless, the stripping down of 'ornamental' plumage was of interest and males produced in these experiments were bred onto various breeds. The inheritance of their plumage traits was followed for some time by Ghigi. I'll find a reference for further reading. If memory serves me correctly, this stock was used in the refinement of the Leghorn.
-Anyway, Beenhakker collected fowl from as far east as Rapa Nui and the Marquesas but the Henny Feathered short tailed rooster with its "bamboo fowl" plumage was a product of Dutch Sri Lanka, possibly collected in the Port of Bantam Java. This is probably where Sebright discovered the unusual rooster that put the last touches on his new breed.
This brings us back around to origins. - Once upon a time- and this is a testament to dedicated, disciplined, selective breeding, the "Sebright" still produced morphs whose plumage belied their Sri Lanka and Grey JF ancesty.
Henk asked for a reference regarding the origin of Sebright Bantam - or more specifically- the origination of the henny feathering in that lineage.
Notes from a journal on hereditary genetics written by Dr. Iwamiya are a bit hard to follow.
Here's what I've been able to procure-There was a gentleman named Beenhakker of a family of merchants very involved with VOC (Dutch East India Company). (Gouverneur ?) Meneer Beenhakker was amongst other things, a dedicated collector of fine art, hollowed eggs, preserved insects and birds. His interest in keeping living birds alive for any amount of time was fairly limited-save for a few pheasant like birds, parrots and domestic fowl.
Through his travels and interest, Beenhakker became involved with a collector of chickens from Dejima Japan by the name of Marques Takeshi Yamashima who paid extremely high prices for imported fowl from the Spice Islands and beyond. Beenhakker, along with other merchants of his day, was constantly searching for that one unusual specimen- that one rooster or hen that defied the imagination. It was big business. Beenhakker had been at the trade of exotic fowl for nearly half a century and his father's grandfathers were also in lucrative trade between Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Japan.
In the ports of Western Sumatra and Western Java it was well know that a certain fighting cock had been developed with short tails of very small size and an unusual voice and comb. Indonesian Red JF derived strains of fighting game were often the mothers of this cross. This was a miniature - even smaller than Junglefowl females. The miniaturization phenomenon is common of most breed types maternally descended- those hatched from the female hybrid between Sri Lanka JF and domestic fowl. Very few of the tiny eggs produced by these hybrid hens hatched and those that did tended to be very small themselves. Hybrids with a specific Asil race had more successful hatching rate due to the % of Grey JF ancestry.
Female Grey Junglefowl
Female Sri Lanka Junglefowl
Female Sebright Bantam Silver
Female Sebright Bantam Gold
Juvenile Male Grey Junglefowl
Male Sri Lanka Junglefowl
Sri Lanka and Grey JF are very closely related. Indeed, their females are similar in colouration and pattern. The males look nothing like one another. This strain of fighting cock was notable in that it had a short tail. It was also unusual in its plumage, like that of a bamboo fowl -(like that of a partridge or a female JF).
Iwamiya's notes include reference to BeenHakker's selective breeding experiments conducted on one of his estates in Dutch Indonesia and Yamashima's purchases from Beehakker.
Iwamiya took special notice of ongoing hereditary research going on in Europe in his day. Yamashima and Beenhakker were up to their poultry trade in the late 1600's through the 1700's. Yamashima's collection remained intact through much of the 1800's. His stock may have provided some genetics in the creation of the Minohiki Saddle Dragger. Iwamiya inherited what was left of the Yamshima collection in post WWll. Very little of it remained in tact. Dr. Iwamiya's maintain some of this collection even today
Getting back to hereditary research-
Iwamiya was keen to learn about experimental hybridization trials carried out by Delacour and Ghigi. He recreated these experiments. These trials revealed that F1 hybrids between Grey and Sri Lanka JF produce offspring intermediate between parental species. Bred interse these F2 hybrids tend to produce males with very few secondary sexual characteristics. The roosters are "henny" in phenotype. The female was invariably Grey and the sire Sri Lanka. I don't recall what came from the reciprocal cross but the Sri Lanka sired progeny hatched from Grey hens produced unusually marked birds. I do also recall thata form of the frizzle mutation was not uncommon in progeny produced from F2 sires.
Fertility was not particularly strong with the F2 generation. Those hens that did lay at all produced very small eggs. An even smaller percentage of the eggs produced developed normally and hatched. From the f3 hens better fertility was established through recombination with various bantam breeds. The progeny were invariably tiny. The results of the experiments were valuable in that they gave an indication of what the ancestor of Bantam breeds probably was made from. Likewise, something may have been learned about the common ancestor of these junglefowl species. When two species of any animal are successfully bred together, they do not produce anything new, but rather spit out throw backs- the common ancestor of both parental species. That common Junglefowl ancestor may have been more similar to the Asiatic Bamboo Fowl (Bamboo Partridge) or to an African Francolin than to a typical Junglefowl in shape, size and plumage morphology. Regardless, the stripping down of 'ornamental' plumage was of interest and males produced in these experiments were bred onto various breeds. The inheritance of their plumage traits was followed for some time by Ghigi. I'll find a reference for further reading. If memory serves me correctly, this stock was used in the refinement of the Leghorn.
-Anyway, Beenhakker collected fowl from as far east as Rapa Nui and the Marquesas but the Henny Feathered short tailed rooster with its "bamboo fowl" plumage was a product of Dutch Sri Lanka, possibly collected in the Port of Bantam Java. This is probably where Sebright discovered the unusual rooster that put the last touches on his new breed.
This brings us back around to origins. - Once upon a time- and this is a testament to dedicated, disciplined, selective breeding, the "Sebright" still produced morphs whose plumage belied their Sri Lanka and Grey JF ancesty.
Thomas Hunt Morgan (1866-1945) bred this pair of male Sebright Bantams (a type of chicken) in order to investigate the genetic inheritance of plumage. One male has the plumage and feathering normally associated with hens; the other has the plumage associated with cocks. Morgan found that the dominant gene for plumage is hen-feathering. Morgan won the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1933 for discovering the role played by chromosomes in heredity.
The origin of the lacing itself is evidently from the "Polish", which is neither Polish nor European.
The origin of Europe's oldest Crested Chicken was the Netherlands. Naturally, this strange race was imported from the Far East by the VOC.
The maternal ancestor of crested breeds belongs to a genetic group that is rooted by the Austronesian race- including the Malagasy.
The Austronesian Malagasy is unusual in that the male and female resemble on another so closely. Note, the male has few secondary sexual characteristics that distinguish him from the female. I've read that the original Malagasy and Reunion fowl was only naked necked for a period of the year when the long hackles of the head (crest), neck and tail were moulted, revealing the naked neck. This would be analogous with what is appreciated in Grey and Red JF males- in their eclipse plumage- though theirs is a bit different in some important characters.
I'm thinking that the short tailed henny roosters from the Port of Bantam may have been bred onto large bodied domestic fowl descended of the Austronesian.
The origin of the crest is evidently Austronesian. Selective breeding for crest conformation created the Spitzhauben and Polish- but in a strange twist of fate-
the Indonesian short tailed bantam was bred back to the Indonesian crested to produce - a dominant- a new dominant- A hen-feathered fowl- with lacing reminiscent of the two wild junglefowl species-
This is just my postulation- one that I'm thinking through for the sake of the mental puzzle presented here.
Why? Because the wide lacing exhibited in our young bird has come about in stock that has neither Polish nor Seabright or any other European stock...
I'd like to use the chicken calculator but it doesn't include the phenotypes of "wild type" save for that of the Red JF.
So I'm treading water...
In the meantime- what breed of hen should I put our cockerel on?
The origin of the lacing itself is evidently from the "Polish", which is neither Polish nor European.
The origin of Europe's oldest Crested Chicken was the Netherlands. Naturally, this strange race was imported from the Far East by the VOC.
The maternal ancestor of crested breeds belongs to a genetic group that is rooted by the Austronesian race- including the Malagasy.
The Austronesian Malagasy is unusual in that the male and female resemble on another so closely. Note, the male has few secondary sexual characteristics that distinguish him from the female. I've read that the original Malagasy and Reunion fowl was only naked necked for a period of the year when the long hackles of the head (crest), neck and tail were moulted, revealing the naked neck. This would be analogous with what is appreciated in Grey and Red JF males- in their eclipse plumage- though theirs is a bit different in some important characters.
I'm thinking that the short tailed henny roosters from the Port of Bantam may have been bred onto large bodied domestic fowl descended of the Austronesian.
The origin of the crest is evidently Austronesian. Selective breeding for crest conformation created the Spitzhauben and Polish- but in a strange twist of fate-
the Indonesian short tailed bantam was bred back to the Indonesian crested to produce - a dominant- a new dominant- A hen-feathered fowl- with lacing reminiscent of the two wild junglefowl species-
This is just my postulation- one that I'm thinking through for the sake of the mental puzzle presented here.
Why? Because the wide lacing exhibited in our young bird has come about in stock that has neither Polish nor Seabright or any other European stock...
I'd like to use the chicken calculator but it doesn't include the phenotypes of "wild type" save for that of the Red JF.
So I'm treading water...
In the meantime- what breed of hen should I put our cockerel on?
Last edited:
Nice pics on this thread
In the meantime- what breed of hen should I put our cockerel on?
Kermit, what's your goal? What would you like to create? Do you want to reproduce this bird or just borrow some of his qualities for future offspring?
Kermit, what's your goal? What would you like to create? Do you want to reproduce this bird or just borrow some of his qualities for future offspring?
Quote:
It would appear from your photos that your birds are heavily melanized (lots of black pigment) fowl. The birds with crow wings (Huastec) are either extended black or birchen and some are most likely heterozygote extended black and birchen. The female in the middle of the Huastec appears to be dark brown and columbian restricted on birchen and carries the pattern gene- she appears to be laced to me. Many black birds (melanized) carry the patten gene which would be needed to produce a lace; they also carry the melanizing genes that would be needed to help form the lace. The pattern gene by itself adds black to a birds feather it takes the columbian or dark brown genes to clear the black from the middle of the feather to form a lace. The lacing would not show on your black birds because of the melanization; the darkest black birds would not carry a restrictor to remove the black in the middle of the feather. The black birds have been carrying around the genes all the time but not put together in the correct manner until you do the correct crossings. Your flock has also been carrying the restrictors needed to cause a lace-this is evident in the laced female.
The Easter Island Kiri Kiri appear to be brown at the E locus (they do not have a crow wing)and also appears to carry some kind of melanizer(s). Your Tigger is a hybrid and many times hybrids will show characteristics that are not found in either parent because they contain genes that have been combined from both parents. This new combination forms a different phenotype not found in either parent. The heavy single lace on Tigger is a product due to him being a heterozygote. Normal single lacing is much narrower and caused by birds that are homozygous or have two genes for each kind of gene needed to form a lace. The bird would need 2 columbian genes or 2 columbian and 2 dark brown genes plus 2 pattern genes and two ore more melanizing genes to produce a proper single lace in females and add zonal lacing in males.
The heavier lacing associated with the sebright is due to the birchen gene and the dark brown gene. The dark brown gene is found in spangled birds and that is why the tip of the sebright feather almost forms a spangle. This spangle is concaved because of the columbian gene.
It is my opinion that you will not be able to produce the same phenotype ( melanized and showing zonal lacing) unless the bird is heterozygous. I have seen this in my male hybrids but it usually shows on the breast and not the wing coverts. Males are different than females in color patterns so hybrid males can produce color patterns that are consistent with specific hybridization. Females may or may not show the same effects if they are hybrids.
Tim
Henk,
That is one handsome bird you have produced.
Tim
It would appear from your photos that your birds are heavily melanized (lots of black pigment) fowl. The birds with crow wings (Huastec) are either extended black or birchen and some are most likely heterozygote extended black and birchen. The female in the middle of the Huastec appears to be dark brown and columbian restricted on birchen and carries the pattern gene- she appears to be laced to me. Many black birds (melanized) carry the patten gene which would be needed to produce a lace; they also carry the melanizing genes that would be needed to help form the lace. The pattern gene by itself adds black to a birds feather it takes the columbian or dark brown genes to clear the black from the middle of the feather to form a lace. The lacing would not show on your black birds because of the melanization; the darkest black birds would not carry a restrictor to remove the black in the middle of the feather. The black birds have been carrying around the genes all the time but not put together in the correct manner until you do the correct crossings. Your flock has also been carrying the restrictors needed to cause a lace-this is evident in the laced female.
The Easter Island Kiri Kiri appear to be brown at the E locus (they do not have a crow wing)and also appears to carry some kind of melanizer(s). Your Tigger is a hybrid and many times hybrids will show characteristics that are not found in either parent because they contain genes that have been combined from both parents. This new combination forms a different phenotype not found in either parent. The heavy single lace on Tigger is a product due to him being a heterozygote. Normal single lacing is much narrower and caused by birds that are homozygous or have two genes for each kind of gene needed to form a lace. The bird would need 2 columbian genes or 2 columbian and 2 dark brown genes plus 2 pattern genes and two ore more melanizing genes to produce a proper single lace in females and add zonal lacing in males.
The heavier lacing associated with the sebright is due to the birchen gene and the dark brown gene. The dark brown gene is found in spangled birds and that is why the tip of the sebright feather almost forms a spangle. This spangle is concaved because of the columbian gene.
It is my opinion that you will not be able to produce the same phenotype ( melanized and showing zonal lacing) unless the bird is heterozygous. I have seen this in my male hybrids but it usually shows on the breast and not the wing coverts. Males are different than females in color patterns so hybrid males can produce color patterns that are consistent with specific hybridization. Females may or may not show the same effects if they are hybrids.
Tim
Henk,
That is one handsome bird you have produced.
Tim
Henk69
Crowing
Quote:
You mean the silver barny? Not my work, but dutch...
Resolution, thanks for that great story!
You mean the silver barny? Not my work, but dutch...
Resolution, thanks for that great story!
Last edited:
- Nov 9, 2010
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Are Ecuador Huastec closely related to silkies? I notice they have much in common: crests, comb, dark skin, and posibly feathered feet(I couldent tell witch of the two breeds were), and Tigger has 5 toes,( again I couldent tell if that came from the Ecuador Huastec, or the other breed)
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