This sure got crazy. Neither Joe Shumaker or Rick Presley badmouthed Mr. Urch. Others defending him said he ran a hatchery with many many breeds and didn't have time to produce or show quality buckeyes. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. The question was answered by two people and I think you can let it go and move on. Some people here should take a time out from BYC and have a beer or a chill pill and cool off. I for one commend Mr. Urch again for keeping buckeyes for over half a century. No matter the quality, he has done a lot for the breed.