Ducks and bibbed gene.

[Loopeend]

Comming from breeding rats, I allways thought that white bibs worked as with rats. Dominant. And full whiteness ressesive; dominating everything the rat caries.

With this calculator I use for ducks online I get;
Full blue male + white female; 50 % black bibbed, 50 % blue bibbed. Since it's quite unknown what the white duck carries; should I not get more options? Anyway.. I thought; it's possible the calculator just can't calculate with only the given 'white'.

But then I got;
Blue mallard male x black duck; 50% black bibbed, 50% blue bibbed.


Where does this white bib, that neither parents have, come from?
Clearly I'm missing something.

Would someone help?
And If someone is at it; Are harlequin fases mere the amount that the pattern get lighter? Like in cats the have genes that makes the cypers-patterns lighter? You have blue-cypers and blue with no cypers-marks at all.
And is it the only gene that has effect on the amount of pattern?

Thank you.

 

[casportpony]

@Pyxis knows a lot about genetics.

 

[Pyxis]

There are recessive bibs, which is its own separate gene, but these are not the bibs you're talking about.

What you're talking about is the bibbing that is linked to extended black. These bibs, we don't know for sure what causes them. All we know is that they show up wherever extended black goes. Breed a gray drake to a chocolate duck? Ducklings are black bibbed. Etc etc.

To get rid of this bib and make a self duck, you need the dusky gene, two copies. It removes the bibbing on extended black based colors.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking with your question about the harlequin gene.

 

[Loopeend]

M+ = Wild-type Mallard
MR = Restricted Mallard
md = Dusky mallard

I allways thought this was the 'brown/wildcolour' gene in comparrison to rat and cat genes. Where you have A (brown) and B black. A is allways dominant of B. AaBB is still brown. No dilution genes carried that result to blue will work then, since they are brown.
Is the M only carried in male ducks? And if so; how do you know your mallard is M+, MR or md? And why do so little in nature have them?
I think I'm completely missing what M+, MR and md stands for even. I thought base-colour.

Li+ = Dark Phase
li = Light Phase
lih = Harlequin Phase

I thought this had to do with how normal or lighter the pattern was. How a wild-colour female has black around each father, that pattern, how that got reduced to be lighter and more even colour.

 

[Loopeend]

What is the difference between a bibbed duck or a 'self duck'? Because the calculator said 'self bibbed' duck.

Sorry for all the questions, but thank you for your help.

 

[Pyxis]

M+ = Wild-type Mallard
MR = Restricted Mallard
md = Dusky mallard

I allways thought this was the 'brown/wildcolour' gene in comparrison to rat and cat genes. Where you have A (brown) and B black. A is allways dominant of B. AaBB is still brown. No dilution genes carried that result to blue will work then, since they are brown.
Is the M only carried in male ducks? And if so; how do you know your mallard is M+, MR or md? And why do so little in nature have them?
I think I'm completely missing what M+, MR and md stands for even. I thought base-colour.

M+ is regular mallard - green head, throat ring, claret breast in males in nuptial plumage, regular penciling and eye stripes in females and males in eclipse plumage.

M^R is restricted mallard; in adults it looks pretty much exactly like regular mallard aside from some white showing up in the wing bows and wing fronts. It's mostly only really noticeable on ducklings because it restricts the black color on ducklings to only their tails and a small black 'mohawk' on the head.

m^d is dusky mallard. This gene removes eyestripes on females and males in eclipse, and removes the throat ring and claret breast in males in nuptial. In ducklings, it spreads their color pigment over their bodies evenly so they don't have eye stripes or spots.

Both genders can have all of these genes. You can see whether a duck is M+ or M^R, since those are dominant. M^R is dominant over M+, so if you have an M^R duck and thought it might carry M+, you'd have to do test breedings to tell. Dusky m^d is recessive. If they're dusky, they have two copies. If they're just carrying it, you again would have to test breed to tell.

Ducks only have two color bases - the mallard bases, which are any of these genes, and then extended black, which is inherited at a different locus. Extended black is incompletely dominant over all the mallard bases - one copy of extended black (E) and the duck will be on a black base, no matter what genes are at the mallard base locus.

Li+ = Dark Phase
li = Light Phase
lih = Harlequin Phase

I thought this had to do with how normal or lighter the pattern was. How a wild-colour female has black around each father, that pattern, how that got reduced to be lighter and more even colour.

Yes, correct. Light phase mallard lightens the colors of the feathers from dark brown to light brown.

Harlequin lightens the brown, and also adds white and removes eyestripes.

What is the difference between a bibbed duck or a 'self duck'? Because the calculator said 'self bibbed' duck.

Sorry for all the questions, but thank you for your help.

Sorry, I was using 'self' to mean all one color. So I was saying self as in solid color, no bib. I was thinking chickens when saying self, lol. I probably should have just said solid color.

 

[Loopeend]

This is so helpfull and interesting!

Still a few questions;
What is the difference between a M+ and MR ducklings? The white in their face? Since that leaves the only duckling I know you haven't described haha.

I REALLY need to write this out, like I used to do to learn rat and cat genetics. Understanding the genetics is one thing, but adding the right names to it.. in English/Dutch/German.. pfff.

Last question;
In M+, why the plus? If I understand correctly only because the the second M or m is never relevant? Because in sake of learning I will start with using MM, MRMR and mdmd if that is the case. In rats everything is written down, only a - means 'unkown'.

 

[Pyxis]

The plus sign indicates all the original genes, the ones all found in the wild mallard.

What is the difference between a M+ and MR ducklings? The white in their face? Since that leaves the only duckling I know you haven't described haha.

They look very different. An M+ duckling is what your basic wild mallard duckling looks like, for an example. An example of an M^R duckling would be a silver appleyard duckling.

I wrote an article about the color genetics in ducks:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/mallard-derived-duck-color-genetics-basics.74277/

 

[Loopeend]

Awesome!

 

[Loopeend]

The pictures are reversed somehow.