Eat or not to eat because Marek's

[rebrascora]

@EggSighted4Life

You are so right about supermarket meat. What the eye doesn't see.... and all that! I would imagine the bruises/blemishes and tumours probably go into dog and cat food. Like you, I really don't understand why supermarket meat goes off so quickly, but washing in vinegar before cooking will take the slime off most meat and make it useable as long as it is not too bad. You wash the vinegar off with the slime under a running tap and then rub salt into the meat to season and cook well.
When processing, I use heart, gizzard, neck and feet for stock, along with bones. The hearts and gizzards are pureed when cooked and added to gravy. Livers are made into pate. Lungs, spleens, kidneys, reproductive organs and contents of crop and gizzard fed back to chickens. Head and guts buried. I'm still trying to figure out a use for feathers. I wonder if I could use them in some way to mulch around fruit trees, to suppress weeds and as a slow release fertilizer?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Yes, feather meal is a really popular fertilizer.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Chickythom]

So I spoke to the pathologist who studied our birds microscopically and he told me it is not legal in the US to eat birds with tumors? I am assuming this was put in place to regulate the commercial producers.

As an aside, can you all with Marek's share your biosecurity and cleaning measures. I don't want to get crazy but don't want to be lax either. We currently pasture raise our poultry and rotate them with electrified fencing. Some get out and free range. I try to clean our shoes before we get out of our car to go anywhere because it is inevitably on the grass we walk on to leave our house. Thoughts? I understand Marek's is pervasive but trying not to share more with the world than needed. Also, how often and how do you clean your chicken areas?

 

[rebrascora]

If that is true I can't see how it could be implemented/policed. Out of the millions of chickens that are slaughtered each year, I cannot imagine people standing there inspecting each one for tumours, especially considering they occur in the organs/offal as well as the meat and I would imagine different workers will be processing different parts of the carcass and many will probably not even be able to identify a tumour from a lump of fat.
I'm afraid I don't practice any biosecurity other than not selling any birds from my flock, although I am conscious of not visiting other people's flocks without a change of clothes etc.

 

[Chickythom]

If that is true I can't see how it could be implemented/policed. Out of the millions of chickens that are slaughtered each year, I cannot imagine people standing there inspecting each one for tumours, especially considering they occur in the organs/offal as well as the meat and I would imagine different workers will be processing different parts of the carcass and many will probably not even be able to identify a tumour from a lump of fat.
I'm afraid I don't practice any biosecurity other than not selling any birds from my flock, although I am conscious of not visiting other people's flocks without a change of clothes etc.

I totally agree. I was taken aback when he said that. Who knows! Thanks for the insight!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

The bio-security that I do is far from perfect!

I try not to bring in started bird from non NPIP places, but have done so and probably WON'T in the future. And I have bought CHICKS because Marek's can't be passed to the egg... only to find out that some BLEEP BLEEP's actually let their broody hatch them and stole the chicks! So if I do get chicks from non NPIP places I will be sure to ask if they were broody hatched. However... Marek's is NOT part of the NPIP standard.

I don't hang bird feeders to avoid attracting "extra" birds or wild life to my yard. They are still a major problem though! And my dogs chase of anything that doesn't belong here. Keeping rodent populations under control I think is also important.

I hadn't really thought about passing something on from my place.. until we were at the feed store picking up chicks a while back. And the signs say "wait for an employee to help you." Well, I'm there all the time and lot's of experience so I thought, meh I will help myself and save the employee the time plus I get to pick my own chicks better that way. Before long my brain clicked and I realized that it was also to protect the birds from disease contamination from my place! Just imagine if everybody showed up and handled the chicks. Nope, I don't wash my hands before going to the feed store. So even if rules don't seem to make sense, should probably abide by them as there are likely things we don't yet realize. Prior to that and you mentioning not tracking it off your property, I hadn't really ever considered my place as being a source for disease. No I probably still won't change my shoes when I leave the house. But I will definitely follow feed store rules better and be sure not to go visit other farms with fowl.

Also, once a bird leaves my property, it cannot return unless processed already.

My chick that did catch Marek's was quarantined away from the flock so the viral load wasn't going back into the flock. And I will likely NOT vaccinate for Marek's in the future... because, it's 90% effective IF given properly. And vaccinating just means your birds MAY develop LESS symptoms. This link gives me enough reason to consider not vaccinating...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous/

A good looong and informative read, if you didn't already find it...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

Once I realized I had Marek's on my hands (and not a vitamin deficiency) I started handling that bird last to help prevent spread to the flock.

I pick up poo from my pasture daily.. or we would be in the mountains! Currently 72 birds. I clean my droppings boards weekly. I scrub my water dishes with a brush when they get green. I refresh nests if I notice poo on eggs (broody hens and chicks). I bring in fresh sand to the coop maybe twice a year.

I am taking a hen to the vet to check for mites today. If confirmed I will clean out all the hay from lay boxes and what got pushed out to the ground when I treat. And consider doing that twice per year maybe after my heaviest parasite load season or something like that. It's an ongoing learning process. And holy cow, can things ever go bad fast when you have a large flock!

I hope to get to the point of recognizing tumors during processing!

What I wonder is why even call Marek's birds safe to eat if they are likely to have tumors (as indicated by my research tumor pressing on nerves causing paralysis) and it's illegal to eat birds with tumors.

I actually like selling birds from my flock, because I consider them to be good birds that are well cared for and I love what I'm doing, it makes room for different birds. But I am considering only selling chicks/eggs that have not been out of the brooder in the future, since I can't know everything and consider my word to be important as well as having HEALTHY birds. But if I achieve my breeding goals for FBCM then my birds will be exceptional quality!

Simple fact is my birds are free range. I live in the PNW where wildlife IS the norm which makes it way more challenging than when I lived in the city in So Cal. Plus many of my neighbors have chickens and I have no control over what they bring to their property. Back when I decided to get chickens, I knew I have sooo many plants considered toxic that I cannot possibly get every one out. I had to make the decision to worry all the time or do my best and forget the rest. Well, I've not YET lost a bird to plant poisoning. Nor do I stress every time I see a plant that doesn't belong. I do still work diligently to get them out if possible though. And that is going to have to be the stance I take on Marek's I think. Now I'm still worried about it sweeping through my whole flock in the next few weeks!!! Anyways, I'm gonna do my best and forget the rest. Yet be more prepared to act fast in the future.

I just didn't *think* parasites or disease was going to happen since I take "good" care of my birds. So first suspicion was vitamin deficiency. How foolish for me to think my birds won't succumb to environmental factors. But now I know instead of just looking for indicators.. I must be proactive. Which will be easier with practice and learning what to look for. Experience is the mother of ALL teachers!

Regarding tracking things on your shoes... I brought my pup in to get vaccines at the vet and let my dog walk in to the facility. The staff said pick the pup up! My response was "oh, I thought my shoes were tracking it anyways." They told me a small track on your shoes is much different than the pup being down their sniffing it directly up. Not exactly the same, but maybe still a little relevant.

However, when I volunteered at the zoo rehab center.. we had shoe sanitizing stations that you just dip your shoes and keep going, if it was important to you.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Speaking of which (water quality from another thread)... the guy that lived here before me also kept fowl and other farm animals. So really my birds could be exposed to who knows what?! Been here almost 3 years now. First case of Marek's didn't show up until 1.5 years of having birds here. Can't say for sure if it's from the other birds in the area or from a few birds that didn't show up during quarantine. Or if it's just here and something made that 1 chick weak. The state vet said to just disclose that my birds aren't vaccinated. Though there is a vaccine that can be done by home breeders, I don't trust my technique enough to consider it effective.. plus I rather just have it die out than carry on for years as indicated by the pbs link. Curious to hear your thoughts though.

ETA.. this was partly mentioned because you are moving to a new property and we jsut don't always know what happened there.

 

[Chickythom]

Thank you for your insight and thoughtful reply. I am making myself crazy with this. At this point we have decided we will cull all our animals from this flock. My intention is to start again with new housing, birds, equipment at our new property. We will vaccinate our new birds. I am not sure if we will get hatching eggs and I will vaccinate them Day 1. I am a nurse so I think I can do it but need to research more. Also I am sure my vet would teach me if need be. I have mixed feelings about the vaccination route for he various reasons you shared. However, I think it is all I can do to help avoid this in the future. We initially opted not to vaccinate and spent a premium on quality birds from a small local breeder. Sadly I think we simply have too many commercial chicken operations in our area to be spared. I am certain 100% of the commercial chickens have and transmit Marek's but probably a) don't live long enough to present symptoms and b) they are all vaccinated. I just can't imagine how every chicken does not have the disease considering how resistant the virus is and how long it can live without a host. I think some chickens are just able to fight it better than others or die and no necropsy is performed and the owner is blissfully ignorant.

We have enjoyed raising the birds but I don't want to make myself nuts trying to protect them from things i can't really control. Ugh.

I hope you don't have any others present with issues. I am always happy to get feedback and suggestions.

Thanks again for your thoughts and insight!

By the way, our Roos were good eating!

 

[Chickythom]

Oh! And you are right about the property. Our new place was a horse facility and prior to that they raised ostriches so who knows what kind of goodies are out there!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Oh! And you are right about the property. Our new place was a horse facility and prior to that they raised ostriches so who knows what kind of goodies are out there!

Interesting, should be good fertile ground!

Usually chickens are more of a problem for other species than vice versa. But wouldn't hurt to look into any ostrich concerns.

Sounds like vaccines is a good way to go for you and it completely makes sense. I doubt I will change my mind, but I know that my mind is open and sometimes my perspective or needs change.

This has been the parasite and disease control learning curve this year. I have to say, ignorant bliss WAS a lot easier! But I like to know the whole truth...

Hope your move goes well. I know that can be an especially stressful time. Even more so I think if your buying and/selling your house. And adding this to it, ouch! But you are being a good sport. Hang in there.