EE/Ameraucana frustration

[dainerra]

actually, my dog completely meets the standard for the breed. He does not meet THEIR vision of the written standard, but they would never argue that he isn't a GSD. He just does not look like

when it says "disqualification" it doesn't mean that the dog no longer counts as a lab! LOL it means that the dog doesn't belong in a show ring. It is still registered as a labrador retriever. No one would argue that the dog isn't a lab or even that the dog can't do the work of a lab. It just means that the dog is over-sized or otherwise is not breeding material.

even if the breeding is done haphazardly, as long as both parents are purebreds, then the offspring is purebred. That's why breeders will tell you that the papers themselves mean nothing when it comes to breeding dogs.

Bloodlines, the birds may be purebred. But, to be REGISTERED they must meet certain physical requirements. The name "Americana" isn't tied to the parentage of the birds, but to the physical attributes of the offspring. Again, though it doesn't mean that the birds might not be purebred.

 

[dainerra]

Yeah, I was thinking that ... why wouldn't it still be called a lab if its a pure breed?

So heres my other question... LOL.
If i breed 2 papered black labs and they have a black and white spotted pup...
Are those 2 parents STILL PURE labs?? Or no, because they didnt produce ALL breed accepted colors?
I still dont get it... cant get my thick head around it...

The dog would still be a purebred. Even if the puppy was born pink. Now, if there was debate AKC might ask for a DNA test showing, yes these 2 dogs are the parents of this pup. Then the pup would be registered as a lab. Look up Panda Shepherds. It is a never before seen color mutation that appeared in a litter a couple years ago.

The difference lies in how the APA has written the standard for the Americana. "Americana"' isn't a bloodline-based breed, but an "appearance-based" one instead. Like palaminos in horses or the varieties of Belgian shepherds in the AKC. In all other countries, they are the same breed - the Belgian Shepherd. In the US, they are different breeds, even though all 3 can appear in the same litter. Therefore, the dogs aren't registered by what their parents are, but what the pups look like.


ETA: clear as mud, right?

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

I breed both EEs and ameraucanas. It IS frustrating when someone markets their EEs as ameraucanas. It cheapens the work I do as a breeder to keep my line clean and up to standard. I do think that most people do it out of ignorance. Hatcheries though are a different matter. They should know better. It is an easy fix to label what they sell as Easter Eggers. Most people won't care as long as they lay pretty eggs.

I disagree with the notion that a pure ameraucana crossed with another pure ameraucana can produce anything but an ameraucana. I don't know why we don't just call them non-standard ameraucanas and be done with it. In my head an easter egger is a pure ameraucana crossed with something else. I get mine by having an ameraucana rooster over buff orps, wyandottes, welsummers and barred rocks. None of the offspring breed true and you never know what you will get with combs and egg color. They do pretty consistently come out with cheek muffs. Combs are mostly pea, but I do get the occasional single comb in my EEs.

Breeding AM to AM though always gets bluish eggs, pea combs, cheek muffs and the right colored legs. Feather colors might not fit the standard if I breed a splash to a wheaten, but technically the bird is still an ameraucana. I understand saying "This bird is pure wheaten ameraucana" or "pure blue ameraucana", but AmxAm gets you AM. Saying that it is magically an EE because the feather color is off is silly.

That sort of sematic bickering also cheapens the breeding work because it opens the door for people to say "Oh well, they are just being snobby about color." and assume then that the hatcheries are correct. If the APA would just say "AM x with anything else equals Easter egger" and "ameraucana x ameraucana equals ameraucana" it would be easier to pursuade the hatcheries that they are using false advertising.

 

[collaire]

Just read through this whole thread. I've never unstood why people are willing to good feed and money into inferior animals. Why not try for the best. Rebel Cowboy, now I understand why we lost the war of Northern Aggression.

 

[cjwaldon]

What is your definition of inferior?

 

[teach1rusl]

While I don't like it, this really helped clear things up for me:

I disagree with the notion that a pure ameraucana crossed with another pure ameraucana can produce anything but an ameraucana. I don't know why we don't just call them non-standard ameraucanas and be done with it. In my head an easter egger is a pure ameraucana crossed with something else.

Breeding AM to AM though always gets bluish eggs, pea combs, cheek muffs and the right colored legs. Feather colors might not fit the standard if I breed a splash to a wheaten, but technically the bird is still an ameraucana. I understand saying "This bird is pure wheaten ameraucana" or "pure blue ameraucana", but AmxAm gets you AM. Saying that it is magically an EE because the feather color is off is silly.

IMO, it's crazy that a pure breed x a pure breed could produce an offspring that most consider a mutt simply because of color variations. Non standard Ameraucana would be the best terminology.

 

[dainerra]

teach1, think of it this way, since I know that so many here are horse lovers as well. If you take 2 paliminos, the offspring might not be a palimino. However, you can take any breed of horse and get a foal that IS a palimino.

Now, if I take my EE and carefully select and breed them, over time I WOULD get birds that would fit the Americana standard. Does that mean that I would then be able to sell those particular offspring as Americanas? Even though they aren't any more "pure" than their EE ancestors?

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

I thought palimino was a color, not a breed.

 

[dainerra]

I thought palimino was a color, not a breed.

It is a bit of both. To be registered as a Palimino, a horse has to fit a certain color pattern. So, any breed can be a Palimino, but not every Palimino is a certain breed.
The Palomino Horse Association is a registry that does not discriminate against any breed. We recognize all breeds based on color and conformation. If a particular horse is not registered with a breed registry and the color proves to be Palomino we will register on color. We have horses from every breed registered with PHA. The ideal color is that of a gold coin, but the shade can vary from light, medium, to dark gold. The mane and tail should be white, ivory, or silver, but we allow 15% dark or sorrel hair mixed in. In the last few years we have opened our doors to creme colored horse with blue eyes. It has been researched and proven that these light colored Palominos always produce a Palomino. Therefore, they are definite breeding stock for the Palomino.
from - http://www.palominohorseassoc.com/history.htm

ETA: so even a "mutt" can be registered as a Palimino since the appearance of the horse is the basis for acceptance.

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

So, technically palimino is a color that can happen in any breed, you just can then register the horse as a palimino.

Ameraucanas though are a breed with many color possibilities. If a chick comes from ameraucana parents and has the characteristics listed in the standard (see below), then it is an ameraucana no matter what the color is. It is just a non-standard color ameraucana.

The male standard as per the American Standard of Perfection listing as found on the Ameraucana breeders website.
COMB: Pea.
BEAK: Curved.
FACE: Nearly hidden by muffs.
EYES: Expressive.
WATTLES: Small, preferably absent.
EARLOBES: Small.
MUFFS AND BEARD: Full, well-rounded, medium length.
HEAD: Medium size.
NECK: Well-arched.
HACKLE: Full.
BACK: Medium length.
SADDLE: Medium in length.
TAIL: Well spread, medium length, carried at 45º above horizontal.
WINGS: Fairly large, tips carried above the hock joint.
BREAST: Prominent.
BODY AND STEARN: Body of medium length, stern well-tucked up.
LEGS AND TOES: Medium length set apart, four toes


The standard as listed on their website doesn't even talk about color. Egg color is mentioned in a paragraph above, but nothing is said about feather color. Given your palimino example, I understand saying "That's not a wheaten ameraucana" because the bird doesn't have wheaten feathering. But to say that a bird hatched from two pure ameraucanas is not an ameraucana, but is rather magically transformed into an Easter egger (mutt) just kind of makes the whole ameraucana name suspect. No wonder most folks don't understand the difference and just use the ameraucana name willy nilly.