EE/Ameraucana frustration

[dainerra]

true. I would say that it is a matter of the people involved, rather than the standard. And I thought that GSD people were picky

It's an old joke that if you want to start a fight, get a bunch of Shepherd lovers in a room and ask which variety is best.

To me, I would say that an Ameraucana is an Ameraucana. I don't know enough about poultry showing to say how they base pedigrees. After all, chickens don't have written documented pedigrees. Well, that I know of anyway. So the basis of the registry seems to be mostly based on appearance. However, the standard in question doesn't mention a color requirement. Disqualifications include presence of ear tuffs and absence of beard & muffs.

Of course, disqualification only means that the birds aren't show quality.

ETA: who wants to write the APA and ask them about it? go to the top and settle this once and for all?

 

[EweSheep]

I had some white Ameraucana roo x black Ameraucana hen and a blue Amerc hen as well and the Ameraucana breeders said it is an EE even the parents were PURE Ameraucanas. That I had problems with and I even bought one that was from a Wheaton x Black parent that were PURE Ameraucana and she was a beautiful thing except her feather color was off.

Product of Wheaton Ameraucana rooster and Black Ameraucana hen (all from Mike's lines), she was a bantam.

Cant put the image up at all from Photobucket no matter what link I put in.

 

[themenagerie]

Originally Posted by CityGirlintheCountry

I disagree with the notion that a pure ameraucana crossed with another pure ameraucana can produce anything but an ameraucana. I don't know why we don't just call them non-standard ameraucanas and be done with it. In my head an easter egger is a pure ameraucana crossed with something else.

Breeding AM to AM though always gets bluish eggs, pea combs, cheek muffs and the right colored legs. Feather colors might not fit the standard if I breed a splash to a wheaten, but technically the bird is still an ameraucana. I understand saying "This bird is pure wheaten ameraucana" or "pure blue ameraucana", but AmxAm gets you AM. Saying that it is magically an EE because the feather color is off is silly.


I completely agree. I have hatchery birds labeled as "Ameraucana" and I wholeheartedly agree that they're EE's, because I simply don't know the breeding and I'm pretty sure the hatchery doesn't care about the breeding either. I also have non-standard colored "Ameraucana" which came from a breeder, just because they're not the correct color, it doesn't change the genetics. Sometimes it seems the "IT'S NOT AN AMERACAUNA, IT'S AN EE!!!" crowd can get a bit strident here. when in reality...I don't think most people care all that much. People just want to enjoy their interesting colored chickens and the variety of egg colors.

An interesting and relevant aside - In the horse world you can breed two registered Paint parents and get a solid colored offspring. These offspring are not eligible for Paint registration ,. They are designated "breeding stock" and can not participate in breed shows. If they are bred and their get are paints, then that offspring can be registered.

 

[collaire]

As a long time breeder I completely disagree. Wait until you've worked many years trying to get a color variety that will breed true. We have to have guys like me who are purists or the mutt breeders would not have anything to create their mutts from. For instance if I take one of my Black Ameraucanas and cross him into a group of Wheaten hens. I'm completely sure that the offspring from this cross will not produce Blacks or Wheatens, therefore what I have created is a group of birds that will produce vary colored birds forever unless I start breeding once again for color uniformity. Been there and done that 40 years ago. I hate re-inventing the wheel

Originally Posted by CityGirlintheCountry

I disagree with the notion that a pure ameraucana crossed with another pure ameraucana can produce anything but an ameraucana. I don't know why we don't just call them non-standard ameraucanas and be done with it. In my head an easter egger is a pure ameraucana crossed with something else.

Breeding AM to AM though always gets bluish eggs, pea combs, cheek muffs and the right colored legs. Feather colors might not fit the standard if I breed a splash to a wheaten, but technically the bird is still an ameraucana. I understand saying "This bird is pure wheaten ameraucana" or "pure blue ameraucana", but AmxAm gets you AM. Saying that it is magically an EE because the feather color is off is silly.


I completely agree. I have hatchery birds labeled as "Ameraucana" and I wholeheartedly agree that they're EE's, because I simply don't know the breeding and I'm pretty sure the hatchery doesn't care about the breeding either. I also have non-standard colored "Ameraucana" which came from a breeder, just because they're not the correct color, it doesn't change the genetics. Sometimes it seems the "IT'S NOT AN AMERACAUNA, IT'S AN EE!!!" crowd can get a bit strident here. when in reality...I don't think most people care all that much. People just want to enjoy their interesting colored chickens and the variety of egg colors.

An interesting and relevant aside - In the horse world you can breed two registered Paint parents and get a solid colored offspring. These offspring are not eligible for Paint registration ,. They are designated "breeding stock" and can not participate in breed shows. If they are bred and their get are paints, then that offspring can be registered.

 

[dainerra]

But that doesnt change what BREED, only the color variety. Unles, like paint horses, the breed is based entirely on appearances and not ancestory. However, the standard doesnt say "any other colors not allowed"

No, I've never delved into poultry showing, but in every other species the parentage is what matters. If your example is the case, than the Black Ameraucana and the Wheaten Ameraucana are not the same breed. Otherwise the offspring would not be "mutts"

ETA: see my previos post eegarding belgian shepherds in the US vs the rest of the world. Here, three different breeds even though you get all 3 from a single litter. In the rest ofvthe world, it's all one breed, just different varieties. Elsewhere, you can freely interbreed all 3 varietiez. Here, such pups will be "mutts"

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

I understand, Collaire. It irritates me no end when people sell their EEs as ameraucanas. I have been very careful with my ameraucanas to make sure that they are the best BBS that they can be. For some fly-by-night hatchery to say "Oh, yes. We have ameraucanas." when they are selling mutts only lowers the image of a breed that I love.
But we have a semantics issue. We need better language for the breed. To automatically insist that a non-standard colored bird out of purebred ameruacanas ISN'T an ameraucana only makes people roll their eyes and say that we are those militant ameraucana people . It isn't logical. The breed is the form, not the color. It is parentage. A x A = A. Whereas A x B = C (in the case of EEs).

We need a better way of expressing to others that a non-standard ameraucana is a non-standard ameraucana, especially when the only difference is in color. That is my only argument. I know a LOT of people have worked very hard to get colors that breed true. A LOT of people have worked very hard to get new colors that breed true. It is to the point though that ameraucanas and Easter eggers are different breeds almost. If WE don't come up with better nomenclature, others will continue to bandy about the ameraucana name and use it in inappropriate cases BECAUSE we have not provided a more logical option.

 

[redhen]

Citygirl... are your birds LF or bantams? I may have to order some eggs this spring...

 

[CityGirlintheCountry]

They are large fowl. My original stock came from Gardner and Riddick. I had a few Cree birds too, but I ended up moving them to the EE pen because they threw a lot of gold lacing in the blues. A real bummer since their egg color is fantastic. But the gold leakage turns them into EEs.

I have a splash rooster in there this season, so technically we aren't BBS anymore. We are just BS.

They will all be blue or splash. Happy to hook you up. They are just now starting to gear back up again so I am finally getting eggs. I just threw the test hatch in the bator, so I should be able to start sending out eggs in a month.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

But that doesnt change what BREED, only the color variety. Unles, like paint horses, the breed is based entirely on appearances and not ancestory. However, the standard doesnt say "any other colors not allowed"

No, I've never delved into poultry showing, but in every other species the parentage is what matters. If your example is the case, than the Black Ameraucana and the Wheaten Ameraucana are not the same breed. Otherwise the offspring would not be "mutts"

ETA: see my previos post eegarding belgian shepherds in the US vs the rest of the world. Here, three different breeds even though you get all 3 from a single litter. In the rest ofvthe world, it's all one breed, just different varieties. Elsewhere, you can freely interbreed all 3 varietiez. Here, such pups will be "mutts"

Each species works differently (dogs, cats, horses, poultry, etc.) The folks heavily involved with breeding and showing tend to make the rules in each species because they have the most to gain and lose - and they usually have at least a rudimentary understanding of genetics. With chickens, it DOES change the breed if the bird doesn't meet strict colour descriptions. Parentage with poultry doesn't matter if the colour is wrong. That can includes feathers, legs, skin, etc. And to get really techinical, combs, shape, and size enter into it not to mention, egg colour. And that applies with ALL chicken breeds, not just Ameraucanas. The Ameraucana folks perhaps are more vocal about it but it does go on in all breeds. With people that know what they are doing, if they see an off colour Rock bird, or Leghorn, Orpington, or RIR, they know something fishy has been going on and they are not considered part of that breed.

A black lab bred to a yellow lab generates a mutt. You, of course, are free to call your critters whatever you want. If, however you are looking for something specific - buyer beware. Do your homework before you buy. Don't just take their word for it.

(With Dutch Warmblood Horses, if the stallion owner doesn't pay a HEFTY fee to the governing organization and follow strict rules to remain qualified, even if both parents are registered Dutch Warmbloods, you cannot register the offspring as a Dutch Warmblood and you cannot refer to it as a Dutch Warmblood - and they police it. Point is, sometimes breed names are EARNED, not inherited.)

 

[redhen]

They are large fowl.  My original stock came from Gardner and Riddick.  I had a few Cree birds too, but I ended up moving them to the EE pen because they threw a lot of gold lacing in the blues.  A real bummer since their egg color is fantastic.  But the gold leakage turns them into EEs. 

I have a splash rooster in there this season, so technically we aren't BBS anymore.  We are just BS.    They will all be blue or splash.  Happy to hook you up.  They are just now starting to gear back up again so I am finally getting eggs.  I just threw the test hatch in the bator, so I should be able to start sending out eggs in a month. 

Cool!! I'll contact you when it warms up here...