Elevated Coops vs Frost Lines, Long Thaws, and Strong Winds

[TheGreenManFarm]

Necessary context info: I relocated from Zone 8 to Zone 4, and am trying to adjust my experiences to keep pace with different climate conditions & challenges.

I was finalizing plans for 2 chicken coops, both 10'x10', and 1 duck coop (8'x8'); the chicken coops will be elevated 3-4' off the ground on pressure treated wood 4x4's, then a timber frame & cob wall with an overhanging A-frame roof. The duck coop will be a similar construction, but only 12" elevated.

Here are my concerns: Weasels, raccoons and skunks potentially breaching the outer wire at night (I've seen all 3 on my farm). Long, wet, muddy Spring thaws from mid-March until early Mary, with periodic mini-thaws melting snow to create mud & ice throughout the Winter. Strong winds, as I my farm is at the top of a hill overlooking a river valley, and there is an open field for a mile stretching west down the hill from my land that lets the west & north winds really juice up to sock me. Also, I discovered this week my frost line is "between 4' and 5'" with the zoning officer recommending I dig below 5' to beat the frost line if sinking foundation posts; obviously this is a bigger logistical challenge than 1-2', considering the best spots for the coops (with visibility from my house windows, ease of access & snow clearance all winter, mature 30' pines to cover from predatory birds, the worst of the winds, and drifting snows, and elevated enough that even when wet the water drains somewhere ELSE instead of forming stagnant swampy conditions) are also near two underground streams which feed my well.

Sooooooo... I am strongly thinking about switching design tactics to the concrete blocks or deck piers. But I'm worried, it would be a completely new technique outside my prior experience. Has anyone used these blocks or piers to both anchor AND elevate a 10'10' size coop? Or if reading through my decision-making factors you see something I missed that could work better, please share?

 

[Howard E]

The way to beat the snow, ice and mud is to elevate the coop on high ground. Ideally, on a high, south facing slope. Gravity works, and it will work in your favor if you let it. Building on a low wet, poorly drained site or one on the north side of slope, leaving them in eternal shade all winter is a recipe for disaster. Even worse in a cold, northern climate.

Instead of elevated coops and posts etc. down to below the frost line, how about a "floating" slab foundation, set slightly elevated on a bed of gravel? It is dig proof, so your weasels, coons, etc. and rats cannot break in.....at least to the coop. Building can be bomb proof too. Include a run if you want, but unless it is covered with a roof and sheltered from the cold north winds, it won't be usable all that much during the worst part of winter. But if it is enclosed on three sides, with a roof cover, and open to the south, it should work well. A covered hoop coop might also work for your run?

 

[Howard E]

Also this..........

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/on-being-high-and-dry.1205839/

 

[TheGreenManFarm]

The way to beat the snow, ice and mud is to elevate the coop on high ground. Ideally, on a high, south facing slope. Gravity works, and it will work in your favor if you let it. Building on a low wet, poorly drained site or one on the north side of slope, leaving them in eternal shade all winter is a recipe for disaster. Even worse in a cold, northern climate.

Instead of elevated coops and posts etc. down to below the frost line, how about a "floating" slab foundation, set slightly elevated on a bed of gravel? It is dig proof, so your weasels, coons, etc. and rats cannot break in.....at least to the coop. Building can be bomb proof too. Include a run if you want, but unless it is covered with a roof and sheltered from the cold north winds, it won't be usable all that much during the worst part of winter. But if it is enclosed on three sides, with a roof cover, and open to the south, it should work well. A covered hoop coop might also work for your run?

Yeah, the location is between my house and a dense stand of mature 30' pines that forms a horseshoe. The coops will be protected from the south by the house, from the east by the garage and 8' wind/drift break fencing I put up along the driveway, and then on the north and west by the dense stand of pines. The pines will also provide hawk cover easily accessible 365, and I'll be encircling the entire 1/4 of an acre with an outer cordon of 6-8' cob walls and then an inner cordon of an 6' hardware cloth & cedar fence with 2' buried below the surface and a layer of gravel included. I'll also be putting up a trellis with a poultry-safe climbing perennial to add additional cover over the inner run. Plus, of course, they'll be elevated. The area I plan to use for this also offers the best drainage on my farm, aside from the 2 main fields, but the zoning officer advised against laying slab or cement or anything similar as a 10x10 ground foundation because the spot does, unfortunately, also sit above two underground streams that feed into my well. He was concerned that basically turing 300 square feet of soil above that critical drainage into a parking lot type hydrological effect would disrupt the positive drainage and my well. Hence, the idea of the concrete blocks or piers; the least of all the evils I'm thinking.

 

[TheGreenManFarm]

Also this..........

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/on-being-high-and-dry.1205839/

Excellent resource for people who don't know about drainage or the impact of direct sun or shade on ground temperatures and soil temperatures below ground level. The spot I picked specifically receives more east, south, and southwest direct sun than any other spot on that side of the farm. I carefully monitored it all Winter in fact, taking snow depth measurements and digging down for soil temperature and hydrology samples as well as hanging thermometers up at five spots in an X layout. Additionally I kept almost daily measurements of the hours of direct sunlight to compare to other locations, and was thrilled to record that it was 100% dry of snow and ground water 3 weeks earlier than most of the farm. It's shielded from the drift effects, but still has southwest to northeast & east ventilation that's slow but steady, and soaks up 6 hours of direct sunlight a day even in December & January. It's by far the winner haha. The only downside is the sudden discovery of the frost line's depth and that challenge to digging down and planting post holes as supports.

 

[BantyChooks]

I have a 12 x 12 coop set on concrete blocks. It's been my first winter with this coop but it hasn't slid off yet so I think we're doing well.

 

[Howard E]

I still think a slab bedded and elevated on a thick layer of gravel is the best option you have. A 300 SF area is basically 15' x 20'....about the size of a standard driveway for a garage........and the whatever weight you have for a coop placed upon it will be spread out evenly vs. concentrated on post holes. That will not be a significant factor in drainage......the roof will already be deflecting it to the same degree as a slab would. Furthermore, a slab will enable you to collect the droppings and litter to spread elsewhere, so none of that will leach into the groundwater to contaminate your well. And again, it a slab is dig proof, so it eliminates a big part of your predator problem. You can isolate the birds from the cold cement slab in winter with a thick layer of mulch/litter.

It also sounds like you have done your homework as far as ideal placement is concerned. Most don't and most pay the price for it......or rather their birds pay the price for it.

 

[aart]

also sit above two underground streams that feed into my well.

How deep are the streams...anyway to know for sure?

Even if you use piers they will need to be sunk/anchored below frost line, no?

 

[TheGreenManFarm]

I still think a slab bedded and elevated on a thick layer of gravel is the best option you have. A 300 SF area is basically 15' x 20'....about the size of a standard driveway for a garage........and the whatever weight you have for a coop placed upon it will be spread out evenly vs. concentrated on post holes. That will not be a significant factor in drainage......the roof will already be deflecting it to the same degree as a slab would. Furthermore, a slab will enable you to collect the droppings and litter to spread elsewhere, so none of that will leach into the groundwater to contaminate your well. And again, it a slab is dig proof, so it eliminates a big part of your predator problem. You can isolate the birds from the cold cement slab in winter with a thick layer of mulch/litter.

It also sounds like you have done your homework as far as ideal placement is concerned. Most don't and most pay the price for it......or rather their birds pay the price for it.

Honestly? If I were at home, where I know the drainage and soil structures better, I would agree with you about the slab. But I've been here only for this passing Winter, and it's been enough to recognize that the soil structures, climatic conditions, and hydrology are a lot different here than what I'm used to from previous farming experience. So I feel it's best to err on the side of caution in taking the zoning officer's advice. Plus there's apparently a chance this farmhouse could qualify for historic site protection if I can prove there 1811 date with the county records is an error; there's evidence the farm I bought is the oldest continuously operating farm in 3 townships, possibly the county. While it's not a front line priority like getting my girls a clean, safe, warm, dry, well ventilated house, it does count as something to be considered in that aesthetics may be important here. If down the road I can amass the evidence the county and historical trust folks would need, I'd hate for them to come out and tell me I'd have to rip up and remove a concrete slab under my coops. All of which is to say I completely agree with you in principle, and on another site with fewer secondary factors to consider I'd do it in a heartbeat.

And also, thank you my friend! If I seem like I take certain things very seriously and do lots of homework, it's a credit to the farmers and agricultural professors who mentored and taught me in the years after I came home from Iraq. For the record, you posted some excellent material and I seriously hope other folks looking to locate their first coop and who have not been taught what to consider stumble along and read this. I appreciate your depth of knowledge and demonstrable love for our little ladies and their wellness!

 

[TheGreenManFarm]

I have a 12 x 12 coop set on concrete blocks. It's been my first winter with this coop but it hasn't slid off yet so I think we're doing well.

Right on, thanks! Does it sit directly on the blocks or is it elevated on posts atop the blocks?