Evaluating and Selecting Chicks and Adult Birds

[RememberTheWay]

Can someone please point me to some good free resources for learning how to evaluate chicks? Pullets? Hens? Roosters?

I am asking because I currently have a lot of chicks that I would like to sort out the best birds for my program and sell the rest or use them in my backyard flock for eggs. I would like to know what exactly I should be looking for in chicks. I currently have Rhode Island red, buff orphington, and lavender orphington chicks to evaluate. I know the lavender are not recognized by the APA but I would still like to evaluate you them for the best of them.

Also, the gene that lavender orphingtons get that you don't want ( can't remember what it's called ATM) can someone tell me how you identify that? I could of swore I read something about the feathers being wrong? Can mites cause the same type of damage?

*Photos just for attention

 

[Acre4Me]

Buy the APA book of standards to start. There is a lot of good general info in there, along with breed specific info.

Next, since you are breeding and crossing, therefore incubating your eggs, look into best nutrition for the adult birds to produce healthy robust chicks. I’m not an expert here, but recall seeing that methionine, in particular, is a nutrient that can be lacking in feeds. Lacking for the purpose of breeding/creating chicks.

Of course, removing deformed chicks is a given. Selecting largest chicks? Selecting lively chicks? If creating a breed, you select for certain traits. So, the wrong comb or too many/too few points on comb or other anomaly. Etc.

But, selection comes down to what you are selecting for. Meat, then you’ll be looking at growth, muscle mass, etc. we once had gorgeous, exhibition quality Dark Briwn Leghorns. Absolutely gorgeous, and fit the APA standard very well. But, those females were terrible layers bc they were from a line selected for looks, not egg laying. The selection process clearly worked.

 

[CatInTheHenHouse]

Also, the gene that lavender orphingtons get that you don't want ( can't remember what it's called ATM)

Tail shredder, I think it’s called.

 

[RememberTheWay]

Tail shredder, I think it’s called.

Thought it was something about "lethal factor gene" not sure though

 

[RememberTheWay]

Buy the APA book of standards to start. There is a lot of good general info in there, along with breed specific info.

Next, since you are breeding and crossing, therefore incubating your eggs, look into best nutrition for the adult birds to produce healthy robust chicks. I’m not an expert here, but recall seeing that methionine, in particular, is a nutrient that can be lacking in feeds. Lacking for the purpose of breeding/creating chicks.

Of course, removing deformed chicks is a given. Selecting largest chicks? Selecting lively chicks? If creating a breed, you select for certain traits. So, the wrong comb or too many/too few points on comb or other anomaly. Etc.

But, selection comes down to what you are selecting for. Meat, then you’ll be looking at growth, muscle mass, etc. we once had gorgeous, exhibition quality Dark Briwn Leghorns. Absolutely gorgeous, and fit the APA standard very well. But, those females were terrible layers bc they were from a line selected for looks, not egg laying. The selection process clearly worked.

I have been researching nutrition for two years. And yes methionine is one to look for but Lysine is another. All the amino acids are important actually and vitamin E and B complex are both important for hatching and chick viability.

I don't have a copy of the SOP. What year do you suggest getting. I know I need one I just haven't been able to get one just yet and I have chicks now. Do you know if their is possibly a PDF of it able to be downloaded for free?

Priorities for my breeding program are temperment/friendliness, egg production, dual purpose, SOP, hardiness, and vigor for breeding.

I have been looking for some kind guide to evaluating and selecting chicks of certain breeds but haven't found anything.

Example- do XYZ for evaluation of each chick, like a list of some sort of every point to check and how to asses each point if that makes sense. Like if weight is a factor which I think it is, how do I know what an appropriate weight would be or a height?

Looking for what body type to select for Rhode Island reds, standard and English Orphingtons, welsummer, and Speckled Sussex. Also looking for information on whether evaluation is different between sexes. Example- am I looking for one body type for both male and female or does the body type selection change if it's a pullet or Cockerel of any specific breed?

How do I evaluate cheal bones (not sure I spelled that correctly) or the bone that runs along their breast/belly? Do I choose longest breast bone period or is their a range? I've seen people say it's better to choose straight cheal bones then curved for egg layers. How do I know if they are uneven, straight, or curved?

Last question is - is there a list somewhere of things to asses by priority. So say I am looking at a brooder of chicks, what is the very first thing I look for to seperate out culls from keeps? Then after that initial selection, so say body type is the first thing to select for, what do I then look for on all the chicks with the correct body type? Is cheal and breast bone next or should I be looking at rate of feathering, weight, combs, etc? Hoping I'm making sense....

 

[AprilWC]

I'm not familiar with any of the breeds you're interested in so I can't help you with specifics. I would encourage you to buy a SOP. Some breed clubs will post the breed standard on their website, some do not. When I joined the National Jersey Giant Club, I was sent copies of drawings demonstrating the ideal for certain traits as well as what common faults look like. There are likely SOP-based or club-based Facebook groups for the breeds you're interested in which is another avenue of support.

You mentioned culling chicks. Once you have the SOP you can see the disqualifications for each breed you raise. As chicks, you could cull for minor things such as improper eye or leg color, obvious structural flaws (cross beak, split wing, etc). However, it's best to grow your chicks for as long as you can. Track their growth and development (keep notes, take pictures). Let them mature before you make cuts.

 

[SourRoses]

Those are some very good questions. You're not alone in wondering some of that stuff. Unfortunately, most genetics conversations revolve around feather color more than anything. I've often found myself frustrated trying to learn about breeding for everything else that makes a chicken.

I can't answer much of that, but a few tidbits I've found...
In breeding for the best of the lines you already have, perfection is not often possible. So traits have to be prioritized. The most essential are traits that are easy to lose if you don't select some birds for it. This is why really successful breeders keep more than one pen for a breed. One pen can be your egg pen, size pen, etc. Those groups can keep being crossed with each other to try to get more of each trait into a main line, until you have birds with everything.
The first thing you cull for in every breed is anatomical defects... Crossbeak, bent toes, wry tail, roachback, etc. Most are apparent from hatch. Some get worse with time so you might notice it later.

Color develops over time and can shift at maturity. So I don't make those decisions too early. Leakage is one of the most pesky, hard to get rid of things. It doesn't show until their final adult feathers. I'd rather have a bird with something else wrong with their plumage color than to breed more leakage back in. It depends on the breed whether you will have that problem.
Eye color can change at maturity too, especially when it comes to red (carotenoids).

Size is easy to lose. When you're dealing with a large breed like English Orpington, the plethora of undersized birds goes to show how challenging it can be to keep. They say "first build the house, then paint it".
Adding to the challenge, there are some slow growth genes that are often considered beneficial in a breed like English Orpington. They enhance plumage colors like lacing by causing the feather structure to take longer forming, making a better printing experience (lol). Slow growth may also tie into physical health which is beneficial for big sized birds.

So early on, you may see some bigger juveniles and choose them for the size, only to miss out on slower developing quality birds. I'm not sure I know enough about how to tell the differences, but one indication is how fully feathered they are. A bigger, fully feathered juvenile doesn't have as much growth potential left as one who still has no tail, or down instead of back feathers (But pullet and cockerel tails also grow at different rates, so make sure you check for other signs of gender).
This is particular to my experience with EO's, it doesn't have any bearing for breeds with fast growth genes.

When it comes to laying, thinner pelvic bones allow a larger egg to pass. The thickness of the legs indicates the pelvic thickness as well. So a hen with thin legs tends to lay larger eggs. That's part of how Leghorns lay huge eggs compared to their body size. Of course, you wouldn't want to take it to extremes and create frail birds, but that's unlikely.

Sorry I can't think of much more that might be helpful. But I'm very interested in the conversation to see what else is offered.

 

[RememberTheWay]

Those are some very good questions. You're not alone in wondering some of that stuff. Unfortunately, most genetics conversations revolve around feather color more than anything. I've often found myself frustrated trying to learn about breeding for everything else that makes a chicken.

I can't answer much of that, but a few tidbits I've found...
In breeding for the best of the lines you already have, perfection is not often possible. So traits have to be prioritized. The most essential are traits that are easy to lose if you don't select some birds for it. This is why really successful breeders keep more than one pen for a breed. One pen can be your egg pen, size pen, etc. Those groups can keep being crossed with each other to try to get more of each trait into a main line, until you have birds with everything.
The first thing you cull for in every breed is anatomical defects... Crossbeak, bent toes, wry tail, roachback, etc. Most are apparent from hatch. Some get worse with time so you might notice it later.

Color develops over time and can shift at maturity. So I don't make those decisions too early. Leakage is one of the most pesky, hard to get rid of things. It doesn't show until their final adult feathers. I'd rather have a bird with something else wrong with their plumage color than to breed more leakage back in. It depends on the breed whether you will have that problem.
Eye color can change at maturity too, especially when it comes to red (carotenoids).

Size is easy to lose. When you're dealing with a large breed like English Orpington, the plethora of undersized birds goes to show how challenging it can be to keep. They say "first build the house, then paint it".
Adding to the challenge, there are some slow growth genes that are often considered beneficial in a breed like English Orpington. They enhance plumage colors like lacing by causing the feather structure to take longer forming, making a better printing experience (lol). Slow growth may also tie into physical health which is beneficial for big sized birds.

So early on, you may see some bigger juveniles and choose them for the size, only to miss out on slower developing quality birds. I'm not sure I know enough about how to tell the differences, but one indication is how fully feathered they are. A bigger, fully feathered juvenile doesn't have as much growth potential left as one who still has no tail, or down instead of back feathers (But pullet and cockerel tails also grow at different rates, so make sure you check for other signs of gender).
This is particular to my experience with EO's, it doesn't have any bearing for breeds with fast growth genes.

When it comes to laying, thinner pelvic bones allow a larger egg to pass. The thickness of the legs indicates the pelvic thickness as well. So a hen with thin legs tends to lay larger eggs. That's part of how Leghorns lay huge eggs compared to their body size. Of course, you wouldn't want to take it to extremes and create frail birds, but that's unlikely.

Sorry I can't think of much more that might be helpful. But I'm very interested in the conversation to see what else is offered.

Thank you! This was super helpful. Wondering what state your in? I'm in Tennessee. Would you possibly be interested in mentoring or just for a friend with similar interests? I am completely fascinated with all the genetics, and heredity, as well as conformation, and the SOP. I am researching everything I can get my hands on regarding breeding but I am not finding a lot of information especially particular to the breeds I've chosen. So in the meantime I'm learning more broad general breeding information instead. Would love a friend that I could talk to about all this because as it stands now my family listens but they don't have the passion for it that I do.

Can you explain to me what some of the defects you mentioned are? I know what cross beak is and bent/curled toes are but I don't know what wry tail or roachback is...

 

[RememberTheWay]

I'm not familiar with any of the breeds you're interested in so I can't help you with specifics. I would encourage you to buy a SOP. Some breed clubs will post the breed standard on their website, some do not. When I joined the National Jersey Giant Club, I was sent copies of drawings demonstrating the ideal for certain traits as well as what common faults look like. There are likely SOP-based or club-based Facebook groups for the breeds you're interested in which is another avenue of support.

You mentioned culling chicks. Once you have the SOP you can see the disqualifications for each breed you raise. As chicks, you could cull for minor things such as improper eye or leg color, obvious structural flaws (cross beak, split wing, etc). However, it's best to grow your chicks for as long as you can. Track their growth and development (keep notes, take pictures). Let them mature before you make cuts.

Can you remove chicks early for wrong body type or can that change with time and it would be better to wait?

 

[NagemTX]

Look up the silver Ameraucana group on Facebook and then look for Steve Neumanns posts on breeding. The advice he gives is good for all beeds of chicken. From building the body type to the personality and use of the breed. His culls are table birds and he's been working on the flightyness of the silver Ameraucana for a while.

It's just good alaround information for breeding birds for a purpose while trying to stick with the SOP.