Expert Problem Re: Sexing and Feed

[linuxusr]

I agree, top pic looks like males, bottom more female-ish but hard to tell.

Thanks for seconding. Do you think that the chicken who is preening (you cannot see wattles or comb) is also male??

 

[Iluveggers]

Wow! There are six in the top pic clearly visible, one is standing on boxes and cannot be seen, one can be seen but you cannot see the wattles or comb because s(he) is preening.

Are you including the one who is preening as male, total of 7, or only the 6 clearly visible, total of 6?

So it looks like our friend is right, that we have more males than females. As we want laying hens, it looks like we need to reverse the ratio. Our friend wants to swap out 3 males for 3 adult females. Do you think we should do it? I know it's an individual decision but I'd like your input, pros and cons.

Thanks much.

I would absolutely do it unless you are raising them to eat them very soon. If you want eggs then absolutely switch out. If you post pics of the new females before you switch, we could confirm here for you if you’d like. (The very top guy with his head down in pic one is questionable only because the comb & wattle are hidden.) If you can get a better pic of him (her?) & the other 2 that would be great.

 

[SpotTheCat]

@Mrs. K
@aart

In a moment I will attach photos. I'm not going to tell you how many males my "expert" says I have. When you tell me your best guess, I'll compare the numbers! It was not easy taking photos. It's not as if they pose. If these photos are too hard to decipher. I will have someone hold each chicken, a grab a couple of shots per bird: then entire bird and a closeup of the head, wattles and comb. But let's first see if this works . . .

I have taken pictures. What confusion! I have included two pictures. One has 7 and the other has 2, all different, so 9/11, two missing. What's your best guess? How many males?

I think that what I'll do next, is take a shot of each individual; another day. That would be best.View attachment 2763154View attachment 2763155

All the ones in the top picture are male, bottom picture are females

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'll include this link to maybe help you sex those chicks, at least know what to look for. It's not always easy, even when they are older. On very rare occasions I can tell if a specific chick is male or female at hatch by posture and attitude, most of the time I can tell sex by five weeks with a lot of certainty, but I almost gave someone a cockerel at 4 months when they wanted a pullet. There is science involved but some art also, and experience really helps. Some can still be hard.

How to sex chicks

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=48329

At 2-1/2 months yours should fairly easy. If you take photos I'd appreciate two of each chick. A close-up of the head showing comb and wattles. If you can include the hackle feathers in this that might be a bonus thought hey may still be too young for that. What I'm looking for here is the size and color of the comb and wattles. At that age bright red means boy, size can be a big hint. The hackle feathers ae the neck feathers. If they are sharp it means boy, rounded girl, but 10 weeks may be too young to show that.

A profile photo showing legs and posture can help a lot. Long heavy legs means male. Upright posture and body conformation can be huge clues. Curving tail feathers are a clue that it could be a boy but some pullets can have those too. A lot of these things are more clues than something definitive but experience can help with that.

Are these "breeds" varieties of various species that in modern times are bred for particular characteristics?

This is my understanding of how breeds developed. At one point in history chickens were feral, living wild and free. Then mankind figured out how to domesticate them, so they did to keep a meat and egg supply handy. Over time they learned how to selectively breed them, maybe to specialize for better egg laying or meat production, some like Silkies or Polish just to be decorative. They are still not breeds, maybe call them "types" or maybe landrace. One definition of landrace is groups of animals or plants that over time undergo natural and artificial selection to promote the stable production of food.

Then somebody (probably a bunch of drunk nobles) decided to compete to see who could breed the best chicken, so they decided to hold contests and get somebody to judge that. Before someone could judge them they had to know what the criteria was, so standards were developed. That's when they became breeds. Eventually associations were formed and what we now call "SOP" or Standards Of Perfection were accepted.

Of course it is more complicate than that. One interesting thing about breed is that there is no one genetic way to get there. The judge doesn't have to know genetically how you got there, the chicken just has to meet the visual description. There is debate if color is actually a breed requirement as many breeds have different approved colors. Regardless, if an approved color is white, there are different ways genetically to make an all-white bird. The judge doesn't care which genetic method you used, just that the bird is an acceptable white. Genetic sequencing may not help much in defining a breed.

I understand that many people on this forum get really hung up on breed. To me, unless you are showing chickens or selling "breed" hatching eggs, chicks, or chickens breed isn't important. It is totally manmade. Chickens don't care about breed, they just see chickens. I don't know if the Dominican Republic has a national poultry association that has recognized the Jabao as a specific breed with an SOP. My guess is that they are a landrace and not a breed. I'd think if an SOP existed an internet search would find it mentioned.

But there is something in those photos that makes me not sure at all, they could be a specific cross, a hybrid instead of a landrace. I agree the ones in the top photo all look male, even the one bending over because of the bright red comb and the two in the bottom photo look female. If that is the case all the boys are barred and the girls shown are not. That is a way to tell sex. If you mate a barred hen with a not-barred rooster all the resulting boys will be barred and the girls will not. Although they are not black that is known as a "black sex link" cross. If Jabao are a landrace that might just be a coincidence in your case but it is suspicious. If they are a specific hybrid cross they would not be considered a breed because they would not breed true.

 

[Iluveggers]

But there is something in those photos that makes me not sure at all, they could be a specific cross, a hybrid instead of a landrace. I agree the ones in the top photo all look male, even the one bending over because of the bright red comb and the two in the bottom photo look female. If that is the case all the boys are barred and the girls shown are not. That is a way to tell sex. If you mate a barred hen with a not-barred rooster all the resulting boys will be barred and the girls will not. Although they are not black that is known as a "black sex link" cross. If Jabao are a landrace that might just be a coincidence in your case but it is suspicious. If they are a specific hybrid cross they would not be considered a breed because they would not breed true.

I was thinking the same thing about possible sex link w barred & not, wondering if the coloring could show male/female. Thank you for the info!

 

[Mrs. K]

I am agreeing with Spot the Cat. All roosters, except the maybe the top bird in the first picture. Yes I would take on laying birds for those roosters, but you will still need to have a separate bachelor pad, as that leaves 4 roosters with my count. These look nice - and would make a nice table bird.

As to the breed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefelder_Kennhuhn#/media/File:Bielefelder-kennhuhn.jpg

This is what they remind me of. I have never heard of anyone doing a genome on chickens. Perhaps breeders do, but generally - one starts with breeds they know, and uses pure bred roosters on them.

You could create a pure bred flock, if that is your interest - it will take several generations. I think 7 is considered pure bred in cattle. Think of it as PP x pp
1st cross - 50 % - cull for traits unlike the breed
2nd cross - 75 % pure PP x Pp

By the third cross - you should be getting more consistency as to breed types... however, this if you have hundreds of birds, and cull aggressively. This would be for very serious breeders.. but you can definitely improve your flock if you want in any direction you want by adding a good rooster, and keeping a sharp knife to cull out what you don't want.

As for feed - different environments - do make for different feed needs. I just cannot reach across this distance and difference with valuable advice on feed. I feed my birds once a day. Some people have feed available 24/7. I think what I would suggest, is going to look at the mentors flock, see what he is feeding, and do you like those results in a similar set up.

Personally, I can't imagine turning over the soil every day. I live in an exact opposite situation, we are arid and sandy.

Mrs K

 

[Halfpasthen]

Wow! There are six in the top pic clearly visible, one is standing on boxes and cannot be seen, one can be seen but you cannot see the wattles or comb because s(he) is preening.

Are you including the one who is preening as male, total of 7, or only the 6 clearly visible, total of 6?

So it looks like our friend is right, that we have more males than females. As we want laying hens, it looks like we need to reverse the ratio. Our friend wants to swap out 3 males for 3 adult females. Do you think we should do it? I know it's an individual decision but I'd like your input, pros and cons.

Thanks much.

I am including the preening bird in the top pic. I believe it's male just based on the bright red I can see on the comb. Females usually don't get that red until point of lay. I'm not saying it's impossible but I would never keep that many males. Besides the fighting amongst themselves they will absolutely terrorize the girls with their amorous attentions.

 

[linuxusr]

@Mrs. K
@aart
@Halfpasthen
@lluveggers


OP Response:

Your descriptions, interpretations, and suggestions are much appreciated!

This is my takeaway:

a. Re: sexing at 2.5 months, it seems that there are many secondary characteristics to judge sex by, such as body stance, robustness of legs, hackle feathers, etc. But it seems that the primary criterion is the development of the comb and wattles or the lack thereof. Clearly my birds that are the largest and most robust (sexual dimorphism) also have deep red and fully developed combs and wattles. You can even clearly count the number of "teeth" on each comb. The females, on the other hand, are less robust and have wattles and combs that are light pink and just beginning to emerge. My guess is that the probability is near zero that the latter would be cockerels and the former pullets. So until I’m proven wrong (an exception), I think I’ll look at combs and wattles.

b. Some of my birds do, in fact, bear a remarkable resemblance to the new German breed with an American cross, Bielefelder-kennhuhn. It’s hard to believe how this bird, hybridized in the 1970’s, could have come here. This island was first settled by the Spanish in the 1500’s, so I suspect that many chickens here have a long and relatively unchanging lineage, given that it is an island. In Haiti, by the way, I see many chickens roosting in trees and quite high up.

c. It’s easy to see how this hazy term “breeds” is used given this fowl’s long history of domestication. This point is reflected in this Abstract from “World’s Poultry Science Journal,” Volume 63, 2007, Issue 2, in the article “Overview of chicken taxonomy and domestication” : [Too bad the complete article is pay-walled!]

Chickens are the most popular poultry worldwide and are now used for both meat and egg production. There is only a sporadic information in the literature on chicken taxonomy; and there is a lack of a single concise document that deals with different issues related to this important topic. The present document contains detailed information on the tree taxonomy of chickens. In addition, process of domestication and its effect on chicken genetic diversity, physiology and behaviour are also discussed. The major conclusions are as follows: 1) Chickens are classified as: order: Galliformes, family: Phasianidae, genus: Gallus (junglefowl). Four species of junglefowl are recognized. These are: a) Gallus gallus (red junglefowl), b) Gallus varius (green junglefowl), c) Gallus sonneratii (grey junglefowl) and d) Gallus lafayetii (Ceylon junglefowl). The current chickens that are used for both meat and egg production commercially are domesticated fowl and are the descendants of the red junglefowl species. 2) Domestication process is a complicated one and involves intensive breeding and selection programmes. During this process, genetic diversity is still maintained, yet reduced, so careful attention is needed in the future to maintain the diversity of specialized chicken species. 3) Domestication resulted in basic changes in the behaviour, physiology and production of the bird, but still there are some similarities between the ancestor and the current chickens.


Viewing the genetic question from the bottom up, this article by the International Chicken Genome Sequencing Consortium, presents the chicken genome and notes evolutionary relationship in genes with homologous functions in two other vertebrates, humans and H. Sapiens and Fugu rubripes, the puffer fish. In the section on the domestic chicken, it notes that Darwin believed that the wild jungle fowl was the ancestor and this this was later confirmed by sequencing of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) which is passed down from the female: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/44v0c3r5



d. As you suggested, for more reasons than just egg laying, I will definitely swap out cockerels for pullets. Last we heard, the fellow who has females does not want to swap but rather his selling his females by the pound! We’ll take a look! Sometimes you have to go with what is because what you wish for doesn’t exist.

 

[LizzzyJo]

Before you switch out the males for females be sure of the age of the females. If there seem to be shady dealings as a possibility and you're a bit new to chickens, they may give you 2-3 year old (or older) hens that are about to stop or slow down laying. Be sure that the females they give you are less than 1 year old. Better would be less than 6 months. A few of each would be fine. They likely wont do a 1-1 swap with pullet to cockerel because that would be unfair to them unless they promised the cockerel they gave you was a pullet.

 

[Painted Calls]

@Mrs. K
@aart

In a moment I will attach photos. I'm not going to tell you how many males my "expert" says I have. When you tell me your best guess, I'll compare the numbers! It was not easy taking photos. It's not as if they pose. If these photos are too hard to decipher. I will have someone hold each chicken, a grab a couple of shots per bird: then entire bird and a closeup of the head, wattles and comb. But let's first see if this works . . .

I have taken pictures. What confusion! I have included two pictures. One has 7 and the other has 2, all different, so 9/11, two missing. What's your best guess? How many males?

I think that what I'll do next, is take a shot of each individual; another day. That would be best.View attachment 2763154View attachment 2763155

All birds in the first pic are cockerels. Both birds in the second pic are pullets.