Quote:
Why is a 92 the cutoff for a heritage bird?
Why is a 92 the cutoff for a heritage bird?
Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry
- Thread starter Yellow House Farm
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #263
Hey Buffalogal....the second he said we needed to keep the Anconas, I thought of you and had a good chuckle!!
Sale of feathers? There are lots of opportunities. My husband has an awesome ability to make things look good. We sell feathers and qui;;s in various packaging at the markets, and bring in a rather decent amount of money for what used to be fodder for the compost.
Just a side note on tone, definition is by nature paracommunitive, which means it stops the flow of conversation; it's a basic sociological principle. Sharing what is working with us or, perhaps, the point where we're at regardless of whether it's working, allows others to speak and listen and learn. Let's try not to make people do this:
, even to the SOP, if we don't there can be no community, and that's just no fun.
Speaking of the SOP.....
Farming on a commercial scale, with a bent on profit, leads to various modes of thinking and reading. A heritage poultry farmer is a breeder, but s/he has many concerns that must be balanced. Every year we head to the accountant with our paperwork. On one spreadsheet is absolutely every expenditure. On another is every sale. The experience of staring these down is impressive. But this is not the only influence.
At the market, customers are constantly giving you feedback. You can't please everyone, but you please as many as you can. Consistency has been, in our experience, one of the mot important lessons. When a customer buys a dozen eggs and enjoys them, she returns for another. She wants the same dozen eggs.
For the sale of stock, the vast majority of our customers are interested in homestead production, not showing. I do not say this as a good thing, or a a bad thing. It's simply the fact of our clientele in New Hampshire.
Back to the SOP......
But first a bit of history. By the end of the 1800's and the beginning of the 1900's, human population was rising quickly, and food was having trouble keeping up. There was a high level of concern for the public health. Indeed, we're starting to see signs of this again to those who have been listening to NPR, talk of food shortage and price hikes are becoming everyday.
As a means to fix food, extension services and university research programs started to research all they could. With the farming mode of the time, which was similar to the means of a current homesteader and small-scale farmer, it was generally accepted that purebred fowl were the best producers with regards to consistency. This is certainly true for egg-production, as it is true for milk production. Consistency in these two functions, being organ functions directly related to parentage, were consistently found to be at the their best and the most stable with the on-going, balanced inbreeding on purebred fowl ( or cattle as the case may be
). As it became abundantly clear that pure-bred poultry bred for production were needed, several intiatives were launched to perfect heritage fowl for farming purposes. The Danish Brown Leghorn is one of the most fantastic examples of community effort focused on heritage fowl for food production. It was not until cheap oil made industrial farming possible that full scale indulgence in farming with hybrids could eclipse the need for the long-term dependability of production bred heritage fowl. With the end of cheap oil becoming ever more apparent, we are currently paying $3.15/gal at the pump (my sister is paying about $9.00/gal in England), the need for heritage fowl might return. We'll see; time will tell.
The SOP is full of details. At its core, it is built for production for those fowl that are supposed to be productive. To fulfill its total purpose, however, it needs to address points on the comb, size of wattles, etc... In truth, these have little to do with production qualities, no matter how militantly we wish to support the SOP. However, they create a challenge and add a bid for the aesthetic, which can be inspiring.
Many of our breeds, if not the vast majority of them, are in need of a lot of love. Their genetic potential is great. Their return to pristine condition will depend much on our willingness, and/or ability to hatch large and cull hard. Hatching small can work, too, but with the law of averages, etc.. it's probalby going to take longer. Such is life.
Today, I had to make a decision. While setting my eggs for the week, whcih I do every Sunday, I weigh each egg before putting it in the rack. One of my most SOP-worthy hen's eggs are undersized. Whereas most of our Dorking hens lay large to extra-large eggs, hers are the smallish side of medium. As much as it pains me, and it does pain me, she is removed from the breeding line-up. This reflects our needs. She is productive and of very good type. On a pure homestead, with aim at family food supply, egg size is only important if one chooses to make it important. For us, however, it is important. Period. She's out. Period.
Production and fancy points can coexist, and will in each of our strains if we are patient and committed to our breeds. It might take a while; for some of us it might take a decade, but that's cool.
We are all welcome to our opinions and free not to accept those that don't ring true for us. I, for instance, do not accept an opinion that says that single combs are fine in any climate and that it is only a matter of ventilation. It sounds nice, but there's a darn good reason for which the Chantecler was developed. I used to live in downtown Montreal, the cold is outstanding. Here, in my home town, I am three little hours' car-ride from Quebec. Our cold is cold, and our state is a topographical smorgesbord of microclimates most of which are in zone 4. All things are not cut and dry. On our property, in our well ventilated facilities, rose combs and the like are best.
The idea of a 92-pointer being the minimum for a heritage fowl is also up for grabs. One may accept it or not. The APA committee of heritage fowl has yet to declare such, and thus it is not "official". It is, however, a really neat goal for which one could aim.
I was recently having a long and pleasant conversation with the chair of the heritage fowl committee for the APA, and I told him that I did not condemn hatcheries. First of all, hatcheries did not land here from Mars. Many of them were established when heritage fowl of quality were much more readily available than they are today and these fowl form the base of their operations. They possess the genetic potential that they possess, and there's really very little to be said about that. Their current phenotypical manifestation may not make it too obvious. but they are genotypically what they are. There is a breeder, whom I admire very much who frequents these threads, he began a now prize-winning line with hatchery stock. He's not the only one.
It is true that some hatchery stock has been seriously bastardized via out-crossing. However, it would be quite unfair to suggest that hatchery mutts are mutts unless we do not assert the same about showbred mutts. I could list, which of course I would not out of respect, more than a few prize-winning breeders I know whose birds were seriously out-crossed to bring in desired traits. Not all hatchery stock is bad, not all breeder birds are good. Moreover, not all hatchery stock is totally removed from breeder birds. As I've mentioned before, Ideal's SG Dorkings are utterly atrocious, I mean real poo. MMCM Dorkings are really quite good. They'd certainly make a good start. Come to find out that Duane Urch supplies them with breeding stock. Now how many MMCM breeds offered can say the same? I don't know. Maybe just a few, maybe several.
More later. Let's keep up supportive community that can stand differences of opinion, the eating of humble pie, and the asking of questions.
Sale of feathers? There are lots of opportunities. My husband has an awesome ability to make things look good. We sell feathers and qui;;s in various packaging at the markets, and bring in a rather decent amount of money for what used to be fodder for the compost.
Just a side note on tone, definition is by nature paracommunitive, which means it stops the flow of conversation; it's a basic sociological principle. Sharing what is working with us or, perhaps, the point where we're at regardless of whether it's working, allows others to speak and listen and learn. Let's try not to make people do this:
Speaking of the SOP.....
Farming on a commercial scale, with a bent on profit, leads to various modes of thinking and reading. A heritage poultry farmer is a breeder, but s/he has many concerns that must be balanced. Every year we head to the accountant with our paperwork. On one spreadsheet is absolutely every expenditure. On another is every sale. The experience of staring these down is impressive. But this is not the only influence.
At the market, customers are constantly giving you feedback. You can't please everyone, but you please as many as you can. Consistency has been, in our experience, one of the mot important lessons. When a customer buys a dozen eggs and enjoys them, she returns for another. She wants the same dozen eggs.
For the sale of stock, the vast majority of our customers are interested in homestead production, not showing. I do not say this as a good thing, or a a bad thing. It's simply the fact of our clientele in New Hampshire.
Back to the SOP......
But first a bit of history. By the end of the 1800's and the beginning of the 1900's, human population was rising quickly, and food was having trouble keeping up. There was a high level of concern for the public health. Indeed, we're starting to see signs of this again to those who have been listening to NPR, talk of food shortage and price hikes are becoming everyday.
As a means to fix food, extension services and university research programs started to research all they could. With the farming mode of the time, which was similar to the means of a current homesteader and small-scale farmer, it was generally accepted that purebred fowl were the best producers with regards to consistency. This is certainly true for egg-production, as it is true for milk production. Consistency in these two functions, being organ functions directly related to parentage, were consistently found to be at the their best and the most stable with the on-going, balanced inbreeding on purebred fowl ( or cattle as the case may be
The SOP is full of details. At its core, it is built for production for those fowl that are supposed to be productive. To fulfill its total purpose, however, it needs to address points on the comb, size of wattles, etc... In truth, these have little to do with production qualities, no matter how militantly we wish to support the SOP. However, they create a challenge and add a bid for the aesthetic, which can be inspiring.
Many of our breeds, if not the vast majority of them, are in need of a lot of love. Their genetic potential is great. Their return to pristine condition will depend much on our willingness, and/or ability to hatch large and cull hard. Hatching small can work, too, but with the law of averages, etc.. it's probalby going to take longer. Such is life.
Today, I had to make a decision. While setting my eggs for the week, whcih I do every Sunday, I weigh each egg before putting it in the rack. One of my most SOP-worthy hen's eggs are undersized. Whereas most of our Dorking hens lay large to extra-large eggs, hers are the smallish side of medium. As much as it pains me, and it does pain me, she is removed from the breeding line-up. This reflects our needs. She is productive and of very good type. On a pure homestead, with aim at family food supply, egg size is only important if one chooses to make it important. For us, however, it is important. Period. She's out. Period.
Production and fancy points can coexist, and will in each of our strains if we are patient and committed to our breeds. It might take a while; for some of us it might take a decade, but that's cool.
We are all welcome to our opinions and free not to accept those that don't ring true for us. I, for instance, do not accept an opinion that says that single combs are fine in any climate and that it is only a matter of ventilation. It sounds nice, but there's a darn good reason for which the Chantecler was developed. I used to live in downtown Montreal, the cold is outstanding. Here, in my home town, I am three little hours' car-ride from Quebec. Our cold is cold, and our state is a topographical smorgesbord of microclimates most of which are in zone 4. All things are not cut and dry. On our property, in our well ventilated facilities, rose combs and the like are best.
The idea of a 92-pointer being the minimum for a heritage fowl is also up for grabs. One may accept it or not. The APA committee of heritage fowl has yet to declare such, and thus it is not "official". It is, however, a really neat goal for which one could aim.
I was recently having a long and pleasant conversation with the chair of the heritage fowl committee for the APA, and I told him that I did not condemn hatcheries. First of all, hatcheries did not land here from Mars. Many of them were established when heritage fowl of quality were much more readily available than they are today and these fowl form the base of their operations. They possess the genetic potential that they possess, and there's really very little to be said about that. Their current phenotypical manifestation may not make it too obvious. but they are genotypically what they are. There is a breeder, whom I admire very much who frequents these threads, he began a now prize-winning line with hatchery stock. He's not the only one.
It is true that some hatchery stock has been seriously bastardized via out-crossing. However, it would be quite unfair to suggest that hatchery mutts are mutts unless we do not assert the same about showbred mutts. I could list, which of course I would not out of respect, more than a few prize-winning breeders I know whose birds were seriously out-crossed to bring in desired traits. Not all hatchery stock is bad, not all breeder birds are good. Moreover, not all hatchery stock is totally removed from breeder birds. As I've mentioned before, Ideal's SG Dorkings are utterly atrocious, I mean real poo. MMCM Dorkings are really quite good. They'd certainly make a good start. Come to find out that Duane Urch supplies them with breeding stock. Now how many MMCM breeds offered can say the same? I don't know. Maybe just a few, maybe several.
More later. Let's keep up supportive community that can stand differences of opinion, the eating of humble pie, and the asking of questions.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #264
PS: Cybercat, thank you for the very thoughtful exposition of your ideas and practices.
J
J
Quote:
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
- Thread starter
- #266
Quote:
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
Geesh, Kathy, it sounds like your NH's just get better and better!
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
Geesh, Kathy, it sounds like your NH's just get better and better!
Quote:
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
Geesh, Kathy, it sounds like your NH's just get better and better!
Honestly, I can not believe these birds! Ya wanna talk about show birds and production .... these have both qualities. I really believe others can, as well.
I didn't see New Hampshires on your list. My New Hampshires have been laying for a couple months or so, and I am shocked! I have 4 pullets and get 4 eggs almost every day from that pen. Not only are they beautiful, they are great layers! I just love them!
I started an auction for some hatching eggs, if anyone is interested ...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=454471
Geesh, Kathy, it sounds like your NH's just get better and better!
Honestly, I can not believe these birds! Ya wanna talk about show birds and production .... these have both qualities. I really believe others can, as well.
- Thread starter
- #268
Kathy, how many breeding pens, meaning cock-hen combos, do you have. Are your hatching eggs all from the same cock?
Quote:
Currently I have all 4 pullets with cockerel #1. In a month I will switch to cockerel #2.
Currently I have all 4 pullets with cockerel #1. In a month I will switch to cockerel #2.
Quote:
Seems to me that if the population of the "homestead" is two middle aged folks, who have no interest in selling eggs or chickens, medium size bantams would be ideal.
You have a point Ken, but bantams are not a typical breed for the homestead flock and, I have little experience with bantam eggs, but I know if it were just me and my wife, we could not depend on our bantams to provide eggs for even our consumption. Maybe if they weren't fond of eggs or didn't cook with eggs, a couple could manage a homestead with a pair of bantams.
Seems to me that if the population of the "homestead" is two middle aged folks, who have no interest in selling eggs or chickens, medium size bantams would be ideal.
You have a point Ken, but bantams are not a typical breed for the homestead flock and, I have little experience with bantam eggs, but I know if it were just me and my wife, we could not depend on our bantams to provide eggs for even our consumption. Maybe if they weren't fond of eggs or didn't cook with eggs, a couple could manage a homestead with a pair of bantams.
Similar threads
New posts New threads Active threads
-
Latest threads
-
Which rooster to keep for sex linked offspring.
- Started by Vkamiko
- Replies: 0
-
-
-
-
Large Wound care and at-home surgery: anecdotes.- Started by TokoBird
- Replies: 0
-
-
Threads with more replies in the last 15 days
-
-
Question of the Day - Thursday, August 14th, 2025- Started by casportpony
- Replies: 75
-
-
-
-
