Feather Pecking and Cannibalism are Heritable Traits

[The Yakima Kid]

http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000794_Rep819.pdf

I'm really happy you aren't having problems, I really am. Now, what response do you have to the 50K odd posts from people who are having to deal with the problem? Will you agree to receive the biddies whose owners are trying to rehome them because of cannibalism issues that could have been avoided by careful selection of stock for their conditions?

Or do you really think this a fight over who is right, rather than an effort to assist first time chicken owners before they have problems, and as advice for those who have had problems, and are thinking of trying to raise chickens again?

Maybe my point is that for those starting with chickens that they should try and set all of the factors in their favor?

BTW, a common practice among some of us is to call the hatchery and ask which strains they have are least cannibalistic, and purchase those. If you buy them at a feed store, find out what hatchery provides their stock and then call it.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

It seems that you are using your personal experiences to color your view of the research--the very mistake you say I am making. If I can't use anecdotal data, you can't either.

You want to use a survey of threads here on BYC to prove your case, but you're cherry-picking the data you use. Where are the threads on BYC from people having problems with mixed flocks? Where are the people complaining about their flighty Marans? How about threads from people having cannibalism problems even though they have adequate room AND the birds are the breeds you say should be avoided? And again, it's one thing to assert the number of threads on feather picking, but unless you look into the data and see if those incidents of feather picking are attributed to those certain breeds/hybrids you have problems with and/or mixed flocks, then your citing the number of threads means exactly diddly-squat in relation to your hypothesis. You can't talk all sciencey and then not follow through in a scientific manner.

Once again, why are you fighting so hard to be THE ONLY RIGHT ONE? Why can't you AND SunnySkies be right? I can tell that you've had many negative experiences with people who were inexperienced chicken keepers/bad managers/bad people who shouldn't be allowed to have a gerbil, much less a chicken, and I'm sorry that you feel so frustrated. But lashing out at people who point out that there are other factors at work with cannibalism and feather picking other than genetics hurts your case as it makes you seem unwilling to consider views other than your own.

Again, no one here has disagreed that aggressive behavior has a genetic component, or even that people should choose their breeds carefully, or that some people should not be allowed to keep chickens. We've simply said that there are easy ways to mitigate these aggressive behaviors should they show up in your flock, and that not all members of a breed/strain/line should be tarred with the same brush.

You're singing the same old song.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm busy dealing with discarded biddies given up by people who were either appalled by chicken violence or frustrated by terminal flightiness.

And yes, chickens do have cannibalism issues on range; go and read some of the early 20th Century poultry husbandry books for more on that point. Researchers and farmers alike seemed to think that the invention of debeaking in Ohio in the 1930s was the best thing since sliced bread.

Losses of 10% or more were considered *normal* in pastured Leghorn flocks.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

You're singing the same old song.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm busy dealing with discarded biddies given up by people who were either appalled by chicken violence or frustrated by terminal flightiness.

And yes, chickens do have cannibalism issues on range; go and read some of the early 20th Century poultry husbandry books for more on that point. Researchers and farmers alike seemed to think that the invention of debeaking in Ohio in the 1930s was the best thing since sliced bread.

Losses of 10% or more were considered *normal* in pastured Leghorn flocks.

You're so busy listening to yourself that you can't hear any one else. You don't address any of the points made by others. Saying "I'm right!" over and over again does not make others wrong. Using early 20th century data while talking about modern poultry doesn't mean a thing; it was normal then for the flock rooster to be super aggressive, but that aggression is being slowly bred out of lines. This, once again, shows that you are right that aggression is heritable, but in this case it negates any points made using early 20th century genetics since those genetics have changed.

I don't know why the "same old song" that you are right, BUT SO ARE OTHERS is so hard for you to hear.

However, it's clear that nothing other than you alone being right will suffice, so here it is: you are right. Some genetic lines are more aggressive than others. Some genetic lines are more difficult for inexperienced chicken keepers than others. I have no problem saying this, since no one has disputed you on these points. I'm done with the conversation; enjoy the victory.

 

[donrae]

Please feel free to read additional research. It has also been observed as a problem on range - you did not the section that suggested observing bird behavior on range?

It isn't simply management; and very few agricultural researchers have made that claim since the turn of the 19thC-20thC as it was observed that birds kept under identical conditions could have very different behavior, and that in some breeds cannibalism was very rare; in some strains the birds were not only rarely cannibalistic, but had minimal reactions to caretakers entering the area;; while other breeds and strains seemed to respond to life in general by jumping up and down and eating each other.

You seriously came back after six months to resurrect this thread and argue this again?

 

[The Yakima Kid]

But...read that carefully.

The picking was problematic in birds kept in confinement. Floor system refers to chickens kept in very high density. This is not a "normal" or typical system and cannot be applied to a backyard flock, where hopefully the owner is not keeping their hens crammed into a space with 12-14 inches per bird. At that density, yes, a chicken with the genetic propensity to not cope well with stress will pick to the point of death and beyond.

Most backyard owners also do not have access to the genetics discussed. You can't buy those birds from a hatchery that sells to the general public. Those are usually reserved for the commercial producer. The chances of you getting birds with those genes are less. Leghorns are Leghorns, but different lines exist, and the lines are often owned by the company. I'm not sure I am explaining this well, but if you are Big Name Egg producer, and you have hens that can lay an egg every 21 hours, you guard those genes carefully, even if they pick, as you can control that with some different management practices, anything from caging to trimming.

This is also 10 year old research. Things change quickly in the poultry world.

I am NOT saying that you are strictly wrong, but I am saying that the average BACKYARD flock, if good management practices are followed (keep the birds at a low density, provide adequate feed with sufficient protein, allow for typical chicken behavior of scratching, etc) the typical backyard owner will not have trouble.

I don't often read here about a lot of picking, as can be observed in commercial flocks, other than some feather picking, so I'm wondering what drove this post? IME, this isn't a problem for backyard flocks. I'm a veterinarian and a long time chicken owner of about 20 years experience. If there is someone who is looking for some help, perhaps helping us find their thread might be of some use.

Yes, it is relevant. The average backyard flock tends to consist of breeds that are less inclined to intra-species aggression, with the exception of a few Production grade RIRs and the rare commercial White Leghorn. It is so relevant that it is a major topic amongst the academics involved in breeding production birds.

James Dryden noted circa 1910 that his flocks, raised on a three headed kale pasture with well ventilated housing varied dramatically in the level of intraspecies aggression. He lost 15% of the Leghorns on one pasture while the adjacent pastures were Little House on the Prairie.
Beak trimming was developed at an extension farm in the 1930s as a humane measure, in the days when many poultry were still yarded or pastured, or simply roamed the barnyard looking for larvae in the ruminant and equine manure or looking for bugs in the house garbage midden.

Unfortunately, one can purchase commercial lines from many hatcheries. You can buy HyLine Whites, ISA Browns, and assorted DeKalb and Shaver birds. Do a Google search.

And almost every hatchery sells some version of Production RIRs or Production Reds.

I am posting this because there are a lot of people who decided that they needed "a colorful egg basket" or "the new popular breed" and had the Marans kill the Silkie or the Leghorn kill the Australorp. My point is that people should do their research and start with breeds such as Rocks, Orpingtons, perhaps Australorps or Easter Eggers and that first flock should all be one breed and one color while the new chicken farmer figures out the rules of the game. Temperament is clearly genetic - look at the Cackle Hatchery breeder flock videos and notice how Dominiques walk freely past one another with no problem while in some breeds contact between birds can lead to serious aggression.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

I have never experiencing feather picking, nor have any if my clients. However, we don't keep our birds in too-small coops, heat them, all the silly things I read about here that people do that stress their birds out

I am NOT saying it doesn't happen. But I am saying be sensible and don't stress your birds out, and you won't have trouble.

I have a huge science background, more than I have ever mentioned here. I know many poultry people. I worked in poultry houses. What I say encompasses both my experience and my scientific studies.

The commercial strains usually discussed in studies are not the ones sold via Ideal and places like that.

I'm glad you are trying to help people, but you are kind of coming across poorly, like "this is gospel." There are many people who would likely do well with some of these breeds and your recommendation might deter them, make them find a breed that doesn't meet their needs and then those birds are in trouble.

I choose to not keep Leghorns because IME, they are flighty and I didn't like them jumping all over the place when I went in to pick up eggs. I had these birds for almost 20 years, as they are excellent egg layers. For someone willing to put up with the silly birds and perhaps keep a closer eye on their birds, these might work out just fine.

I think I'm done here. Good luck to you.

I will say it again. Cannibalism is heavily genetic. This is why it was bred out of broilers. Were it not genetic, how would the breeders have done that?
Of course, there are still lines that tend to produce rapist roosters, but that is another discussion for another day.
BTW - I have a significant science and technology background as well. And anything unrelated to genetics and poultry is *irrelevant.* The fact that I took biochemistry and complexity theory says nothing about my knowledge of poultry.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

You're so busy listening to yourself that you can't hear any one else. You don't address any of the points made by others. Saying "I'm right!" over and over again does not make others wrong. Using early 20th century data while talking about modern poultry doesn't mean a thing; it was normal then for the flock rooster to be super aggressive, but that aggression is being slowly bred out of lines. This, once again, shows that you are right that aggression is heritable, but in this case it negates any points made using early 20th century genetics since those genetics have changed.

I don't know why the "same old song" that you are right, BUT SO ARE OTHERS is so hard for you to hear.

However, it's clear that nothing other than you alone being right will suffice, so here it is: you are right. Some genetic lines are more aggressive than others. Some genetic lines are more difficult for inexperienced chicken keepers than others. I have no problem saying this, since no one has disputed you on these points. I'm done with the conversation; enjoy the victory.

Excuse me, but flock roosters weren't under discussion here. Flocks composed solely of layers were the matter at hand - and you seem to feel that it has to be management or feeding or some other factor that is just not involved in the problems of cannibalism with ranging poultry. You constantly go back to floors and cages - and I agree that one article discussed those systems - but they were discussed as part of an explanation as to why birds bred for floor systems and birds bred for cage systems have different abilities to adjust to social interaction without violence.