Feather type mystery continues•Silky FEATHERED bantam Cochins• Mille Fleur and Blue?

[RememberTheWay]

I recently purchased a lot of about 50/60 bantam Cochin chicks. I knew frizzle was a possibility in the feather types. As they feathered out I began to notice what appeared to be a third feather type. All of these chicks have 4 toes, correct combs, and the comb and shank/feet colors are all correct. As well as correct body/carriage type.

Now that some of them are older, I am certain a portion of these birds have the silkie feather type. I have silkie feathering in mostly blue birds, but there are also some mille fleur as well as a frizzle millefleur.

My questions are this: Has anyone seen silkies bantam Cochins before? What about a mille fleur silkied Cochin?

Next can we try to figure out what bird in her flock is carrying the silkie feather gene recessively. These Silkie feathers never popped up until she changed her rooster this year due to a predator killing her previous roo. I suspect that they the new roo carries the silkie feather gene recessively, but because there seems to be consistency in the color of the chicks, I'm thinking it's only one or two of her hens that also carry the gene. She has a splash Cochin, smooth feather, some black frizzled Cochins, and I believe a mottled black Cochin hen. The rooster is smooth and mottled Cochin. I attached a photo. Any guesses on where to look for the possible mille fleur pattern being carried. I'm assuming the roo has to carry both MF and the silkie feather gene for these chicks to even be possible.

The second photo that is marked has the rooster identified in the center, and I circled the hen I suspect of carrying silkied feathers in purple. Not sure about the silkies MF. Though. Actually now that I think about it, the MF chicks are in smooth, frizzle, and Silkies- so would that mean maybe one of the black frizzled hens carry MF and silkied feathers? Can a bird carry both frizzle and silkie feather types?

 

[Amer]

@pipdzipdnreadytogo has silkied Cochins.
Could you show us a picture of the chicks that you hatched out with silkie feathers and the mille fluer one, @RememberTheWay ?

 

[RememberTheWay]

@pipdzipdnreadytogo has silkied Cochins.
Could you show us a picture of the chicks that you hatched out with silkie feathers and the mille fluer one, @RememberTheWay ?

Here are some of a couple of the blue ones but there are more. I don't have pictures of the mille fleur ones but will post them later today definitely

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Hi, yes, I breed silkied Cochin bantams! Those little wings sure do look silkied from what I can see in those pictures. I'd let them feather in a bit further to be sure, of course. Sometimes those early wing feathers can be weird, so you never know!

It's definitely possible for both parents to be carrying genes that could make a Mille Fleur-like appearance, just like it's possible for the parents to be carrying the gene for silkied feathering without showing it. Mille Fleur in Cochins, at least here in the U.S., is not very well nailed down yet, so there's a lot of variety in the genes that come from Mille Fleur pens, and I've even seen leaky black mottled like that rooster come out of MF pens.

Silkied feathering is caused by a completely different gene than frizzled feathering, so yes, both can be carried by the same bird. Some people even breed birds that are both silkied and frizzled.

As far as MF silkied Cochins, I'd seen someone on Facebook who was working with them the other day, but it was in passing and I don't recall who or where they are. But yes, silkied MF are out there as well!

Anyway, cute babies! Congrats on them!!

 

[RememberTheWay]

Here are pictures of the other babies- I could of swore I posted these here last night. Now I'm thinking maybe I accidentally added them to something else!?!

 

[RememberTheWay]

Hi, yes, I breed silkied Cochin bantams! Those little wings sure do look silkied from what I can see in those pictures. I'd let them feather in a bit further to be sure, of course. Sometimes those early wing feathers can be weird, so you never know!

It's definitely possible for both parents to be carrying genes that could make a Mille Fleur-like appearance, just like it's possible for the parents to be carrying the gene for silkied feathering without showing it. Mille Fleur in Cochins, at least here in the U.S., is not very well nailed down yet, so there's a lot of variety in the genes that come from Mille Fleur pens, and I've even seen leaky black mottled like that rooster come out of MF pens.

Silkied feathering is caused by a completely different gene than frizzled feathering, so yes, both can be carried by the same bird. Some people even breed birds that are both silkied and frizzled.

As far as MF silkied Cochins, I'd seen someone on Facebook who was working with them the other day, but it was in passing and I don't recall who or where they are. But yes, silkied MF are out there as well!

Anyway, cute babies! Congrats on them!!

Thank you. Really appreciate this.

The pictures of the blue ones in the first set are a few wks old, actually. And I am now completely certain that they are definitely silkied. No other true feathers ever started anywhere. They got those first little pin feathers on the wings that I wasn't quite sure about and now they still look like silkie wings and their body is covered in blue fur. The oldest one here is probably about 6/7 wks old now. And then there are two that are about 4/5 wks old now.

I guess my next question would be who should she suspect is creating these. Does it appear to possibly be two different hens? I am assuming the rooster has to be one half of the equation because none of her birds show these traits phenotypically. Which is why before she changed roosters she never saw these traits in hatches. The traits were always there, just hiding in the background because the rooster they were paired with did not have those traits recessively. I am also assuming the roo has to both carry silkied feathers AND MF recessively. The rooster is actually a mottled bird not just black. When I was there I didn't look close enough to know about leakage on him though.

I guess my next question is, since you said a bird can both carry the frizzle gene AND silkie feather gene, is is possible to also carry blue and not show it (didn't think so) AND carry MF at the same time? So would it be possible for this to only be one hen and the roo or is she looking at two hens possibly? We have blue silkied chicks, smooth feathered blues, black smooth and frizzled, mottled smooth and frizzled, looks like a couple chicks may be silkied black mottled or just black, maybe a couple blue MF, and then the trio of MF silky/frizzle/smooth. And one may actually be frizzled black with Silkied feathers too. Besides separating a hatching eggs individually marked, would there possibly be anything visually on these birds to indicate who may be the mother/s ? Like maybe leakage on them in specific places or certain colors?

 

[RememberTheWay]

Hi, yes, I breed silkied Cochin bantams! Those little wings sure do look silkied from what I can see in those pictures. I'd let them feather in a bit further to be sure, of course. Sometimes those early wing feathers can be weird, so you never know!

It's definitely possible for both parents to be carrying genes that could make a Mille Fleur-like appearance, just like it's possible for the parents to be carrying the gene for silkied feathering without showing it. Mille Fleur in Cochins, at least here in the U.S., is not very well nailed down yet, so there's a lot of variety in the genes that come from Mille Fleur pens, and I've even seen leaky black mottled like that rooster come out of MF pens.

Silkied feathering is caused by a completely different gene than frizzled feathering, so yes, both can be carried by the same bird. Some people even breed birds that are both silkied and frizzled.

As far as MF silkied Cochins, I'd seen someone on Facebook who was working with them the other day, but it was in passing and I don't recall who or where they are. But yes, silkied MF are out there as well!

Anyway, cute babies! Congrats on them!!

Also do you have a website or social media group/channel? Would love to have a look at your projects lines and what you've achieved? If you do chicks or eggs maybe I could use some of your birds to continue to work with what I'm growing out here?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Thank you. Really appreciate this.

The pictures of the blue ones in the first set are a few wks old, actually. And I am now completely certain that they are definitely silkied. No other true feathers ever started anywhere. They got those first little pin feathers on the wings that I wasn't quite sure about and now they still look like silkie wings and their body is covered in blue fur. The oldest one here is probably about 6/7 wks old now. And then there are two that are about 4/5 wks old now.

Oh yeah, by that age they're definitely fuzzy if they're going to be. How exciting!

I guess my next question would be who should she suspect is creating these. Does it appear to possibly be two different hens? I am assuming the rooster has to be one half of the equation because none of her birds show these traits phenotypically. Which is why before she changed roosters she never saw these traits in hatches. The traits were always there, just hiding in the background because the rooster they were paired with did not have those traits recessively. I am also assuming the roo has to both carry silkied feathers AND MF recessively. The rooster is actually a mottled bird not just black. When I was there I didn't look close enough to know about leakage on him though.

The rooster would have to be half of the equation, here. If some are Blue and there are no Blue hens, just the one Splash, then she would have to be as well. It is possible that she carries genes that could make a MF-like coloration as well (they would be blue MF from her, however!), though if you're getting frizzled MF-like colors, then one of the frizzles must be part of the equation on those as frizzle is a dominant gene that can't be carried sight-unseen like silkied feathering. So it's entirely possible that multiple of her birds carry silkied feathering and having a rooster with the gene just revealed that.

The rooster is black mottled with reddish color leakage in his shoulders visible in the picture you attached. That's why I mentioned birds like him coming out of MF pens. The MF color isn't well hammered out in Cochins yet, so they tend to throw a lot of variation, including birds like him.

I can't tell if I'm seeing color leakage in the frizzled Black hens or if it's a lighting thing, though. If any of them have color leakage, I'd suspect them for contributing. But if not, it's still possible for them to throw such chicks.

I guess my next question is, since you said a bird can both carry the frizzle gene AND silkie feather gene, is is possible to also carry blue and not show it (didn't think so) AND carry MF at the same time? So would it be possible for this to only be one hen and the roo or is she looking at two hens possibly? We have blue silkied chicks, smooth feathered blues, black smooth and frizzled, mottled smooth and frizzled, looks like a couple chicks may be silkied black mottled or just black, maybe a couple blue MF, and then the trio of MF silky/frizzle/smooth. And one may actually be frizzled black with Silkied feathers too. Besides separating a hatching eggs individually marked, would there possibly be anything visually on these birds to indicate who may be the mother/s ? Like maybe leakage on them in specific places or certain colors?

Blue is a partial dominant that primarily impacts the black pigment of the feathering, so the only way it would really hide is if another gene was present that covered up that black pigment in another way, such as one of the white genes. All birds visible have black pigment (even the Splash hen; her feathers are black diluted to splash by the blue dilution gene), so none of them should be able to hide blue (obviously the Splash girl has blue and is not hiding it, of course!).

Mille Fleur is the result of a combination of genes, most of which are recessive so could technically hide, though generally birds hiding some of those genes would have some subtle signs of them like the color leakage I pointed out on the rooster. However, a lot of Cochins carry the eb partridge gene that MF is based on, including those in solid BBS pens like my own, and show no signs of it in their adult feathering, only in their chick down. I get what I assume based on their chick down coloring are ER/eb chicks every now and then from my birds, and they feather out like a normal Blue, Black, or Splash without any color leakage every time. So if you have birds carrying eb and mottling hidden like that and you happen to breed them together, you could end up with a MF-like coloring in the chicks.

To be honest, unless there is some kind of obvious color leakage on one of them, and maybe not even then, short of separating birds and hatching a fair number from each individually, you're probably not going to be able to pin down exactly who carries these genes.

Also do you have a website or social media group/channel? Would love to have a look at your projects lines and what you've achieved? If you do chicks or eggs maybe I could use some of your birds to continue to work with what I'm growing out here?

Ah, a lot of people ask me about social media and I have considered making one or two... For now all I have is my thread here on BYC, though: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/breeding-silkied-cochin-bantams-to-the-standard.1555327/