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- #21
Mamagirl3
Chirping
Thank you for info! The difference between 17% and 20% here is about $5 .. a little less 4 something... both bags being 40 lbs. BUT they are different brands as well .. duvour (spelling?) and purina.
Feed hen and roo
- Thread starter Mamagirl3
- Start date
Money is certainly a factor. We can't (and shouldn't try) competing with factory farm eggs on price. We'll never be that efficient... or that cruel.
People make their own decisions- many will want to go as cheap as possible, some will have other priorities like non-GMO/soy/whatever, some will want happier/healthier chickens, etc. There are many paths available and we don't have perfect information. The rules (like 16% protein) were made for keeping chickens alive for about 2 years with maximum egg production. Make your best decision and go with it unless you are seeing problems.
I accidentally ended up with a 50lb bag of pellets, my ladies wouldn't touch it, I waited 3 days thinking of they were hungry enough they'd eat it... they didn't unless I turned it into a wet mash. I sold the bag to my neighbor for next to nothing and chewy replaced the mistake for free
Sometimes chickens just don't like a particular mix. Give them a few days, but if they don't change their mind, then try another brand.
Try to use the feed with within a few months of the production date (generally on the label attached to the bag). Also, make sure that it didn't get wet and moldy at some point which makes feed unpalatable.
Try to use the feed with within a few months of the production date (generally on the label attached to the bag). Also, make sure that it didn't get wet and moldy at some point which makes feed unpalatable.
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Several years back someone posted a link to a study where they fed roosters feed with the same amount of calcium in it as Layer feed. Of course they had a control group with the same feed but less calcium. They did not just count how many fell over and died, they cut them open so they could see internal damage. Some of them, not all for sure but some, developed internal organ damage. It was not generally life threatening but there was some damage in some of them. It could affect fertility or make them less thrifty. Many were fine, no problems at all, but some did have damage. The general conclusion was that it is best not to feed roosters a lot of extra calcium. In 1987 I has Hepatitis B and suffered liver damage. It did not kill me but my doctors are very careful what medications they might prescribe. Liver damage is not good.
I've had chickens that will eat out the big chunks and leave the small bits, especially the powder. I've had young baby chicks that would not eat the bigger bits of crumbles for a couple of weeks. I used a blender to grind the bigger chunks up. When they grew they ate the larger bits.
I've read that protein around 30% or higher can cause avian gout. I personally would not want to feed them anything higher than 24%, I don't see that a laying flock needs anything nearly that high. One reason the commercial operations feed their hybrid laying hens 16% protein levels is that the more protein the bigger the egg. Those specially bred hybrids have small bodies and lay large eggs. If they fed them a higher protein the eggs would be so large they would be more prone to laying problems. It's healthier for them to not feed a high protein feed and the eggs are large enough.
I've had chickens that will eat out the big chunks and leave the small bits, especially the powder. I've had young baby chicks that would not eat the bigger bits of crumbles for a couple of weeks. I used a blender to grind the bigger chunks up. When they grew they ate the larger bits.
I've read that protein around 30% or higher can cause avian gout. I personally would not want to feed them anything higher than 24%, I don't see that a laying flock needs anything nearly that high. One reason the commercial operations feed their hybrid laying hens 16% protein levels is that the more protein the bigger the egg. Those specially bred hybrids have small bodies and lay large eggs. If they fed them a higher protein the eggs would be so large they would be more prone to laying problems. It's healthier for them to not feed a high protein feed and the eggs are large enough.
U_Stormcrow
Crossing the Road
Sorry I'm late to this party. I can maybe link studies later.
Salt levels, regardless of gender, should be around half a percent. You will find that level pretty consistently among all feeds for all purposes, from all major brands. (as a sample) Note that if they display Sodium, not table salt, you expect a number around .3%
Re: Calcium.
Excess Calcium is ABSOLUTELY dangerous to your roosters. Also any pullet prior to point of lay, and any bird which produces small to medium eggs infrequently. There is no serious dispute about that fact, the biological processes are well understood, there is ample studies supporting it, and numerous anecdotes arising from mixing errors at the mills resulting in sudden mortality spikes.
But that's not the real question. As Paracelsus observed, "the DOSAGE is the Poison". To analogize it to human experience, its like smoking. No one can honestly telly you "THAT cigarette will give you cancer." But they can tell you that the earlier you start smoking, the more you smoke per day, the longer you smoke, the more likely you are to develop one or more types of cancer and some related maladies. That's a matter of statistical certainty, used daily by insurers around the world in writing policies.
Excess calcium and chickens, the same way. Gout, urolithiasis, kidney damage, liver damage, intestinal damage of all sorts, reduced feed efficiency, inhibition of certain nutrient uptake, etc all become more pronounced and more frequent as the pathology progresses.
"Layer" feed is formulated mostly based on studies from the late 60s, 70s, early 80s as the cheapest way to feed production hens, under commercial management conditions, below which losses attributed to poor nutrition exceed savings from cheaper feed. That's where the 4% calcium +/- figure comes from.
If your birds aren't laying large to extra large eggs 5 days out of 6, those studies aren't intended for them. If you plan to keep your birds past first adult molt (when production tends to drop significantly), those studies aren't intended for them.
But what about all those very earnest posters who claim it does no damage, that they've done it for years?
Two responses.
One, they have no nul hypothesis against which to compare it - so they never see how much better their birds could be if they weren't fed excess calcium (and to be fair, some of the differences are so small as to be measurable in studies averaging hundreds of birds, but not observable by the typical owner. If your feed efficincy drops from .32 to .29, you will never notice it in a backyard flock, but over thousands of birds, you can bet a 10% increase in feed offered per pound gained is going to be noticed.
Two, many of the signs of calcium toxicity are clinically evident internally, but completely imperceptible externally. If you don't routinely take apart your birds, get a feel for things, those signs will be missed. And they may still, if your birds are young enough, be almost imperceptible. Is the liver more friable than normal? Could be a sign of excess calcium. Could also be a sign of excess fat (together with other symptoms), certain bacterial infections, and certain mold toxins. Hard to know for certain.... Is there a fine powder of grey-white sandy substance over the internal organs? That's a clear sign of excess calcium, but it may not be evident externally - unless you note it in a poor gait in the affected bird, or excess urates on the feces.
Finally, there are things in mitigation. Genetics plays a factor. There's a time component, mentioned above. The rest of the diet plays a factor. Diets high in nutrients whose absorbtion is inhibited by excess calcium don't result in deficiencies - the excess compensates for the inefficiencies the same way offering extra B1 inhibits the action of Amprolium, a common thiamin antagonist used to control coccidia. Phosphorus acts as a buffer. Feeds using dicalcium phosphate or calcium diphosphate as a significant portion of their calcium source cause less damage than those relying on oyster shell or another calcium carbonate source.
oh wait, you asked about excess protein, too. You aren't likely to pick up a bag of feed at the store with too much protein for chickens. Its too expensive, no one would buy it, and the benefits too few. Protein levels over 24% are associated with higher incidence of "angel wing" in developing ducks and other waterfowl. The only downside to 24% protein in a backyard chicken feed is cost. Broilers are routinely fed 24%, sometimes higher, protein feed to help support their extremely rapid development. A study intended to induce gout and urolithiasis in poultry thru excess protein fed almost 40% protein to get a significant sample of affected birds for measurement.
I usually recommend that the typical backyard owner, of the typical backyard flock, with typical backyard management practices feed an All Flock/Flock Raiser* type crumble to all their birds, all their lives, with free choice grit, oyster shell, and fresh clean water available at all times in seperate dishes. Without regard to age, gender, onset of of lay, condition of molt, etc.
*Essentially an 18-20% protein, 3.5% fat+/-, 1.5% calcium +/-, 3.5% fiber +/- feed, preferably with about .6% Phosphorus, at least .35% Methionine, and .7% Lysine.
Because its easy for you, and its good nutrition for them. Crumble because the chicks can easily eat it to, but if you have a mixed gender all adult flock, pellet is fine. If you ferment, pellet is fine.
and, in the interest of full disclosure, I don't feed my own birds the way I just recommended - in fact, I do almost everything I just suggested you not do. All my birds (ducks and chickens) of both genders get 24% protein for thier first 7-9 weeks of age, until they join the adult flock. I mix layer and a game bird feed (for reasons of cost) to obtain a 20% protein approx 2.8% calcium feed I use to feed all the adults, the rest of their lives. But most of my males are introduced to freezer camp between 8 weeks and 20. None make it 18 months before going to camp. My hens don't make it past their second adult molt, and many go to freezer camp sooner.
My reasons for that are complicated, its not something I recommend for everyone. But All Flock, all the time, for all the birds of all the genders is a safe and easy way to raise chickens, ducks, geese. Doing something different has limited benefits in limited conditions, and should only be considered after weighing all practical options.
Hope that helps.
My flock is in my Sig, below. You can see the results of me feed regimen here.
Salt levels, regardless of gender, should be around half a percent. You will find that level pretty consistently among all feeds for all purposes, from all major brands. (as a sample) Note that if they display Sodium, not table salt, you expect a number around .3%
Re: Calcium.
Excess Calcium is ABSOLUTELY dangerous to your roosters. Also any pullet prior to point of lay, and any bird which produces small to medium eggs infrequently. There is no serious dispute about that fact, the biological processes are well understood, there is ample studies supporting it, and numerous anecdotes arising from mixing errors at the mills resulting in sudden mortality spikes.
But that's not the real question. As Paracelsus observed, "the DOSAGE is the Poison". To analogize it to human experience, its like smoking. No one can honestly telly you "THAT cigarette will give you cancer." But they can tell you that the earlier you start smoking, the more you smoke per day, the longer you smoke, the more likely you are to develop one or more types of cancer and some related maladies. That's a matter of statistical certainty, used daily by insurers around the world in writing policies.
Excess calcium and chickens, the same way. Gout, urolithiasis, kidney damage, liver damage, intestinal damage of all sorts, reduced feed efficiency, inhibition of certain nutrient uptake, etc all become more pronounced and more frequent as the pathology progresses.
"Layer" feed is formulated mostly based on studies from the late 60s, 70s, early 80s as the cheapest way to feed production hens, under commercial management conditions, below which losses attributed to poor nutrition exceed savings from cheaper feed. That's where the 4% calcium +/- figure comes from.
If your birds aren't laying large to extra large eggs 5 days out of 6, those studies aren't intended for them. If you plan to keep your birds past first adult molt (when production tends to drop significantly), those studies aren't intended for them.
But what about all those very earnest posters who claim it does no damage, that they've done it for years?
Two responses.
One, they have no nul hypothesis against which to compare it - so they never see how much better their birds could be if they weren't fed excess calcium (and to be fair, some of the differences are so small as to be measurable in studies averaging hundreds of birds, but not observable by the typical owner. If your feed efficincy drops from .32 to .29, you will never notice it in a backyard flock, but over thousands of birds, you can bet a 10% increase in feed offered per pound gained is going to be noticed.
Two, many of the signs of calcium toxicity are clinically evident internally, but completely imperceptible externally. If you don't routinely take apart your birds, get a feel for things, those signs will be missed. And they may still, if your birds are young enough, be almost imperceptible. Is the liver more friable than normal? Could be a sign of excess calcium. Could also be a sign of excess fat (together with other symptoms), certain bacterial infections, and certain mold toxins. Hard to know for certain.... Is there a fine powder of grey-white sandy substance over the internal organs? That's a clear sign of excess calcium, but it may not be evident externally - unless you note it in a poor gait in the affected bird, or excess urates on the feces.
Finally, there are things in mitigation. Genetics plays a factor. There's a time component, mentioned above. The rest of the diet plays a factor. Diets high in nutrients whose absorbtion is inhibited by excess calcium don't result in deficiencies - the excess compensates for the inefficiencies the same way offering extra B1 inhibits the action of Amprolium, a common thiamin antagonist used to control coccidia. Phosphorus acts as a buffer. Feeds using dicalcium phosphate or calcium diphosphate as a significant portion of their calcium source cause less damage than those relying on oyster shell or another calcium carbonate source.
oh wait, you asked about excess protein, too. You aren't likely to pick up a bag of feed at the store with too much protein for chickens. Its too expensive, no one would buy it, and the benefits too few. Protein levels over 24% are associated with higher incidence of "angel wing" in developing ducks and other waterfowl. The only downside to 24% protein in a backyard chicken feed is cost. Broilers are routinely fed 24%, sometimes higher, protein feed to help support their extremely rapid development. A study intended to induce gout and urolithiasis in poultry thru excess protein fed almost 40% protein to get a significant sample of affected birds for measurement.
I usually recommend that the typical backyard owner, of the typical backyard flock, with typical backyard management practices feed an All Flock/Flock Raiser* type crumble to all their birds, all their lives, with free choice grit, oyster shell, and fresh clean water available at all times in seperate dishes. Without regard to age, gender, onset of of lay, condition of molt, etc.
*Essentially an 18-20% protein, 3.5% fat+/-, 1.5% calcium +/-, 3.5% fiber +/- feed, preferably with about .6% Phosphorus, at least .35% Methionine, and .7% Lysine.
Because its easy for you, and its good nutrition for them. Crumble because the chicks can easily eat it to, but if you have a mixed gender all adult flock, pellet is fine. If you ferment, pellet is fine.
and, in the interest of full disclosure, I don't feed my own birds the way I just recommended - in fact, I do almost everything I just suggested you not do. All my birds (ducks and chickens) of both genders get 24% protein for thier first 7-9 weeks of age, until they join the adult flock. I mix layer and a game bird feed (for reasons of cost) to obtain a 20% protein approx 2.8% calcium feed I use to feed all the adults, the rest of their lives. But most of my males are introduced to freezer camp between 8 weeks and 20. None make it 18 months before going to camp. My hens don't make it past their second adult molt, and many go to freezer camp sooner.
My reasons for that are complicated, its not something I recommend for everyone. But All Flock, all the time, for all the birds of all the genders is a safe and easy way to raise chickens, ducks, geese. Doing something different has limited benefits in limited conditions, and should only be considered after weighing all practical options.
Hope that helps.
My flock is in my Sig, below. You can see the results of me feed regimen here.
U_Stormcrow
Crossing the Road
Here's a few to start your readings -
etc....
Leg abnormality associated with dietary excessive calcium carbonate in broiler chicks
Effects of Calcium Source and Calcium Level on Growth Performance, Immune Organ Indexes, Serum Components, Intestinal Microbiota, and Intestinal Morphology of Broiler Chickens
Evaluation of the dietary interaction of calcium and phosphorus in the high producing laying hen
Interrelationship between sodium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, calcium, and phosphorus in laying hen diets
Calcium and its relationship to excess feed consumption, body weight, egg size, fat deposition, shell quality, and fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome
Renal and Parathyroid Changes Produced by High Calcium Intake in Growing Pullets
Effect of calcium/phosphorus imbalance in the ration on flock performance in two broiler flocks in north Georgia
Experimental rickets in broilers: gross, microscopic, and radiographic lesions. I. Phosphorus deficiency and calcium excess
Clinicopathology of gout in growing layers induced by high calcium and high protein diets
etc....
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FunClucks
Crowing
Thank you @U_Stormcrow ! Awesome advice as always. I remembered the basics that you had written on previous threads, but not the details. Appreciate your input!!!
U_Stormcrow
Crossing the Road
BYC is for sharing knowledge, resources, experience. Happy to be able to help, and again, apologies for being late to this particular party. Some personal stuff going on right now (good things - but time consuming)
There are lots of opinions on the topic. unfortunatley we seem to be living in an age where one persons opinion is worth the same as anyone elses. It isn't.
Luckily we don't have to rely on trying to work out who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't because we have evidence to base our knowledge on.
The evidence and the differences in a hen and roosters biology indicate that high levels of calcium are not suitable for roosters. Yep, lots of people will tell you they've fed their roosters layers pellets without their rooster falling over dead. The falling over dead bit can take some time. One of the first questions one should ask such people is how long they had their rooster for and did they do a necropsy when the rooster died.
Luckily we don't have to rely on trying to work out who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't because we have evidence to base our knowledge on.
The evidence and the differences in a hen and roosters biology indicate that high levels of calcium are not suitable for roosters. Yep, lots of people will tell you they've fed their roosters layers pellets without their rooster falling over dead. The falling over dead bit can take some time. One of the first questions one should ask such people is how long they had their rooster for and did they do a necropsy when the rooster died.
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