FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

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It's a process of elimination in figuring out these issues. You are feeding the exact same feed you fed when dry? If so, the protein and nutritive levels did not decrease so any changes could not be attributed to less nutrition. Are you feeding the same number of scoops you fed when feeding dry? This could be the source of your problem, as you are essentially feeding less feed in the same size scoop....the new measurements should reflect that the feed/grains are now engorged with fluid and so take up more space in your scoop.

You can try an experiment to see how big that difference really is by taking some fermented water in a clear or opalescent container and placing the same amount of dry feed in the fermented water as you place~dry~in a container right next to it. In the morning look at the total volume of feed in the containers. You will find the wet feeds seem like so much more due to the addition of moisture and their subsequent swelling to take up more space in the container. Then apply this concept to your scoop volume as well and figure you might have to increase your total number of scoops to dish out the same level of nutrients, even though the act of fermenting will increase the absorption of those same nutrients it does not actually increase the nutrient levels themselves.

In other words, you might inadvertently be feeding less total nutrients than you used to feed if you are going by total scoops being fed. My birds naturally thin out a little in the spring/summer months when the bugs are starting to rise because they are putting more miles on their bodies in their foraging efforts as they try to compete for the plethora of bugs and also because I start feeding less grains and let them get more natural proteins.

Sometimes it seems I use less scoops than I used to when feeding dry but I've since noticed that it all varies and sometimes I use less and sometimes more, just like when feeding dry and adjusting to food abundance on the free range.

The blowing of the undercoat in the spring is typical and this is getting rid of the winter insulation. You should see sleek new forms on your adult hens as those downy under feathers release in a spring/summer mini molt~I found a pocket of feathers in the yard one day that looked like a pred had gotten a hold of one of my birds and then I looked for the bird...noticed the rooster was loosing his underpants around his legs!
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He won't start getting fluffy around the legs and thighs again until fall. This is his usual spring/summer putting on of the summer drawers, so to speak, but I'd just never seen him lose them all in one place before so it looked like the scene of a crime!
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If it is really hot where you live, those new feathers on the youngsters are going to grow in a little slower than normal because feather growth responds to the ambient temps....if it is cold outside, feathers grow in faster. When it is hotter, birds will thin down their coats or, in this case, not put as much nutrition into growing feathers as they will into growing the bird because protection against the cold is not a priority. Fall/winter chicks always put feathers on faster than spring/summer chicks.

The chicks I'm currently raising are also showing slow feather growth because they arrived here later in the year and are feathering in warmer weather but chicks received in March last year feathered rather quickly and that's saying a lot when speaking of CX chicks.

Here's a current example of birds at the same age but raised at different ambient temps:

This is one of last year's CX at 7 wks...this chick was born in Mid-March. CX typically are pretty scanty on their feathering because they grow so quickly, but you can see this bird has his full set of feathers.



This is 7 wk old dual purpose chicks, fed the very same FF mix, but born in the last part of April. You can see the bare patches, the patches that are still downy and the barely started feathering on the breasts and backs.



 
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Wow - what a quick response! Thank you!

I am feeding the same feed as before, so I agree that the same nutritional value is there - which made for a lot of my confusion... Amounts, however, may be something I need to take a second look at...

With the older birds, before starting the ff I just kept their layer pellets available at all times in their run. But I did not allow them to free range every day then either... So, now with the ff, I am feeding them all once a day in the late afternoon, but they are allowed to free range all during the day. With the exception of the feathers on the ground, I am not as concerned about them. I had not considered that they would shed some of their undercoat as a dog would with the warm up in temperatures, but that makes a lot of sense to me. We recently went from a prolonged cool and very wet spring into full fledged upper 90s summer heat (we pretty much skipped most of the 70 and 80 degree days...), and so the drastic change in temperature could explain the sudden explosion of feathers in the big kid pen...

With the babies, I actually try to leave some of the ff in the brooder at all times for them to eat at will. I have even on occasion left some in their feeder out available to them while they free range. I've done this since the younger birds have really been my challenge in converting over to the ff, and they often will have some leftover in the feeder when I come to refill. Between the wasted feed they always had when fed dry and the fact that they often have ff "leftovers" sitting in their feeder now, it would be hard for me to gauge whether they are intaking more or less than when fed the dry crumbles. They still just don't seem to care for it, though they will peck at it... I mean, I know that they will not deliberately go on a hunger strike because they do not like the taste of something - so I am not concerned that they will starve themselves - but the ragged appearance and thin stature just makes me concerned. I do not know if it is feed related, weather related (their brooder is outside under a covered porch), or sickness related, but a couple weeks ago I had several chicks in this brooder become puffed up and lethargic. I lost two, but the others have all mostly recovered - with the exception of their current ragged appearances... These babies currently in the brooder are the only May born babies that I've ever raised, so - again - I didn't account for slower feather growth based on the heat...

With the exception of these babies being born later in spring, and changing feed over to ff (and adding UP ACV to waters), I have raised these chicks just like all my others. This is the first I've experienced the feathering issue. I was worried it was ff related, but I may just chalk it up to the good ol' TX heat.

Based on the fact that they usually have access to food around the clock, would you supplement anything to try to fatten them up a bit? When I say the breast bone is prominent, I mean it is sharply sticking out and very noticeable when you pick each one up. Or would you just give them some time to adjust to the heat and do what they will with the food available/foraged?
 
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It sounds as if they are recovering from something, since you've had a few die and some that acted sick for a bit...could be you could up some nutrients and it may help. Are they having diarrhea? Others would advise deworming but I'm more of a natural husbandry kind of gal, so if I wormed it would be with all natural substances like garlic, pumpkin seeds, ginger root, etc.

Could you post a pic of these raggedy birds? It sure would help to be able to see a close up of what you are seeing. Have you checked them for mites and lice? It could contribute to the weight loss even though they have plenty of food and it could also contribute to feather loss. It's hard to trouble shoot when one doesn't get to see and handle the bird but it certainly isn't natural for birds with plenty of food and free range to be so skinny and poorly in appearance, so you have to look at the probable causes being from external sources such as parasites or illness.

Side notes:

Since you are offering FF, you probably don't need the ACV in the water unless you are placing it there to keep the water fresher.

A quick way to increase nutrients is to place a little~and I mean a little because this stuff is powerful~calf manna in your FF to increase vitamins and proteins for birds that are recovering from illness or parasite infestation.
 
I went back and looked at my trusty chicken calendar to make sure I was getting my timeline right.

We started with 10 chicks in this brooder that range between 3-6 weeks. During the last couple days of May I noticed that the two BOs one marans, and one RIR were all puffed and sleepy looking (red flag!). Due to a couple problems I am having with my laying hens (another problem for another day), I had been doing some research on BYC and ran across your story about the gnarly bunch (truly loved that story BTW) and was very interested in ff, which I had never heard of before. Well, on May 30th I started my buckets fermenting. On the morning of May 31st I found a dead RIR baby in the brooder. (Totally baffling since she was not one of the RIR that had been puffed during the previous couple days.) All of my birds, including the now 9 babies in this brooder got their first taste of ff later that day. Well, two days later, the little marans was found dead... Since then, all the puffed birds have become unpuffed, so if there was a sickness it appears that these remainjng eight have overcome it. However, prior to the puffiness/sleepiness, they had all been fluffy and growing like normal chicks are expected to. After they lost the puffiness/sleepiness, which was about a full week ago now, they just don' t seem be 100% right still.

Here are some examples:

This first is the RIR that I expected to lose. She was the puffiest/sleepiest of the bunch. She is the only one that had diarrhea. I had to clean her bottom a couple times, but picking her up this afternoon I noticed that her bottom is now bald... The last picture shows her breast bone (is that what you call the keel bone?) sticking up beside my finger. I hope you can see it in the pic. It's very sharp.

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We've discussed the lack of feathering on the marans (which are the youngest three out of the remaining eight in this brooder). Here are another couple of shots of two of the three.

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Lastly, these are the tail feathers of a cream legbar rooster that is in there. His feathers and those of all the others look like this. Separated at the ends and - well - ragged looking...

I looked over several of them just now and see no signs of lice or mites. They are not scratching themselves and are not picking at each other. They appear to have plenty of energy. They are eating (though, again, not enthusiastically) and drinking. Just ragged.

I put some garlic on their feed for the first time this afternoon.

I add the ACV to keep the waters fresher. Since our temps started going up over the last couple days, I've noticed the goopy slimy stuff trying to grow in there. We use the regular white and red plastic quart sized waterers in the brooders.

Maybe they are just still recovering from something that took much more of a toll on them than I realized...
 
Dang, the last tail feather shot didn't show up. Here it is:

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Also, if you note in the pics, I had just put their ff in the brooder. They are walking around it and picking at it, but they are not all lined up tearing into it like they are starving....
 
From what you've told me, the birds seem to be recovering from maybe cocci overload? Hence the drowsiness, the puffed appearances and the death of a few of them. Sounds like the FF might actually be helping in that, as it definitely will inhibit overgrowth of cocci in the bowel. I'd give it time and also I'd remove any choice of dry feeds you are currently offering. They are just getting used to a different texture of feed and it's natural that they be hesitant but, when presented with no choice, they quickly adapt to the only feed available.

Giving only the FF will help repopulate the bowel with good bacteria more quickly than if they had a choice of dry feeds also, which do nothing much for the bowels. It sounds like the ragged appearance may be the aftermath of illness and I'm betting the FF will slowly right that wrong and you will soon see some very pretty feathering to replace their ragged plumage.

Just coincidence that you started feeding FF when they were just getting over an illness, I'm thinking, so it just appears that the FF is contributing towards these symptoms....but everyone else reports the opposite, including what I've seen in the Gnarly Bunch. That was near miraculous on the recovery and I'm betting you will see some good results too if you give it some time. Could be just what your birds are needing.
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Take plenty of the befores and pretty soon you can show us some very lovely "after" pics as a result of the FF!
 
I just never really considered cocci to be the problem since I never saw any bloody stools. The quick deaths of the two chicks I just chalked up to maybe substandard immune systems coupled with the changes in feed that perhaps didn't agree with them, maybe too much temperature fluctuation, etc... Considering not every chick in this brooder showed symptoms of illness, and other older chicks that run around on the same grass at different times also never showed any symptoms, still suggests that maybe these 2 that died did in fact have substandard immune systems... Hmmm...

Thank you so much for the insight. When I saw that you had started this one, and that it wasn't thousands of posts long, I was hopeful that I would get a response from you as I've definitely come to see you as an expert at this! My 6 year old asked me the other day why I don't read books anymore. I couldn't really explain to him that all my time lately has been spent reading about the Gnarly Bunch and the advice on the OT thread!

When I stumbled across your thread documenting the Gnarly Bunch, it really opened my eyes. Despite growing up a country girl, this is only my second year of chicken keeping and I found myself being sucked into the too-quick-to-medicate, must-always-have-antibiotics-and-DE-on-hand group - which is not my style. I don't even like to give antibiotics to my children until I have seen that their own immune systems are just not kicking whatever snotty nose or other ailment they may have at the moment - much to my hypochondriac mother-in-law's chagrin. :) I have small bunch of older hens that, while at first glance appear healthy enough, when I really got to looking at them, I realized that they are not 100% and that I should be doing better by them.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is THANK YOU! I will take pics and will update. :)
 
How nice! Thank you for the compliments! The Gnarly Bunch are still cranking out the eggs~at their age!~and my ol' Bertha went broody yesterday and is sitting on a clutch of eggs...just moved her to a private nesting spot this night. They are all enjoying an ideal retirement and this spring has been the most beautiful in a long, long time.

I can't visualize a time when I will give up feeding the FF...it has too many good benefits and has made such a difference in the coop environment as well as in the health of my old birds. I think it is extending their lives and their productivity into old and active age.

It's funny...I only check BYC every so often because I really don't post much here any longer due to their refusal to let us speak freely of God, so it was just happenstance that I saw your post and responded.

A few pics of the GB, taken earlier this spring...









 

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