FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[mandaleigh1981]

Fed FF for the first time and they loved it! Bee you are a godsend! Thank you!

 

[KrazyChromatics]

Quote: while i was not aware of that, i was using it only as a light supplement, every 2 or 3 days, when i get down to about 10 gals of mixture i add about 2 cups of the show bird which is a complete feed, and about 3 cups of the calf manna, 4ish quarts starter grower, 9 quarts layer, 4 quarts scratch, and 3 4quart scoops of alfalfa cubes, which probably amounts to 6 or 7 dry quarts then i throw in a 5 gal bucket of water, mix, and let it ferment for 15/24 hrs before feeding out, sometimes ill add more alfalfa/layer and some water at the next feeding but generally ill wait depends on how much i feed out that day, sometimes my bird numbers flux on a weekly basis, and im feeding a lot of growing birds, so naturally i expect to increase rations for those on a weekly basis....

 

[RoseMarie1]

I brought some into work yesterday because i was trading 4 hens (for what i was told were bantams... um they were brahmas!) and selling 2 roos and i brought feed to show the new owners and so i had something for them through out the day... I had several people comment on it and i had to spheal on and on over and over lol... but i put layer, starter/grower, show bird, calf manna, scratch, and alfalfa cubes *shrug* my birds think its the best, even the new girls took a liking to it right away they also got to snack on cuccumber halves for enthused customers lol, im sorry but people are too easily amused

LOL

 

[Beekissed]

while i was not aware of that, i was using it only as a light supplement, every 2 or 3 days, when i get down to about 10 gals of mixture i add about 2 cups of the show bird which is a complete feed, and about 3 cups of the calf manna, 4ish quarts starter grower, 9 quarts layer, 4 quarts scratch, and 3 4quart scoops of alfalfa cubes, which probably amounts to 6 or 7 dry quarts then i throw in a 5 gal bucket of water, mix, and let it ferment for 15/24 hrs before feeding out, sometimes ill add more alfalfa/layer and some water at the next feeding but generally ill wait depends on how much i feed out that day, sometimes my bird numbers flux on a weekly basis, and im feeding a lot of growing birds, so naturally i expect to increase rations for those on a weekly basis....

Have you ever figured up the total protein of all that mix? Sounds like you have several sources of medium to high protein going there. Don't want to sound like an alarmist but I'm getting feedback from several people this year who have loaded up on proteins and are having some organ failure and death in their flocks from it. There is a reason layer ration is normally 16% protein...because that is all that is needed for high production layers and is just about all they can metabolize safely on a continuous basis.

Feeding show bird feeds and calf manna are for temporary spans of time( we never used it more than 2 wks for show animals) to condition an animal for show but not necessary to maintain good health and can actually burn out their kidneys, livers and hearts after awhile. If you want long lives on those birds, you might want to cut proteins down to a more normal ration..and even lower if they are not currently producing at a high level.

 

[Michelle82]

while i was not aware of that, i was using it only as a light supplement, every 2 or 3 days, when i get down to about 10 gals of mixture i add about 2 cups of the show bird which is a complete feed, and about 3 cups of the calf manna, 4ish quarts starter grower, 9 quarts layer, 4 quarts scratch, and 3 4quart scoops of alfalfa cubes, which probably amounts to 6 or 7 dry quarts then i throw in a 5 gal bucket of water, mix, and let it ferment for 15/24 hrs before feeding out, sometimes ill add more alfalfa/layer and some water at the next feeding but generally ill wait depends on how much i feed out that day, sometimes my bird numbers flux on a weekly basis, and im feeding a lot of growing birds, so naturally i expect to increase rations for those on a weekly basis....

Have you ever figured up the total protein of all that mix? Sounds like you have several sources of medium to high protein going there. Don't want to sound like an alarmist but I'm getting feedback from several people this year who have loaded up on proteins and are having some organ failure and death in their flocks from it. There is a reason layer ration is normally 16% protein...because that is all that is needed for high production layers and is just about all they can metabolize safely on a continuous basis.

Feeding show bird feeds and calf manna are for temporary spans of time( we never used it more than 2 wks for show animals) to condition an animal for show but not necessary to maintain good health and can actually burn out their kidneys, livers and hearts after awhile. If you want long lives on those birds, you might want to cut proteins down to a more normal ration..and even lower if they are not currently producing at a high level.

Long term high protein does have it's problems --- I found however that in winter when the Free-Range has a lot LESS protein, upping the protein content of the feed really helps the hens cope with the freeze and lack of green food, resulting in less of a drop in egg production.
I do however do the math and never take the total protein content over 19% and that is mid winter. We get a couple of days of snow cover and sub-zero temperatures.

( TIP- when doing math on protein content, remember standard protein content % is calculated to weight, NOT volume, so once you have your little recipe, do not use volume to measure out your ingredients... 1sunflower to 2 crushed corn does not translate to one bucket of sunflower to two buckets of crushed corn, Sunflower is very light weight and takes a lot of space-- translated into volume it's probably more like three buckets of sunflower to two buckets of crushed corn.)

I encounter this problem a lot when helping people with feed mixtures.

Growing birds also require higher protein content than grown birds. Commercial starters are at about 21-22%protein, grower at 19% protein and layer at 16% protein. So giving young chickens a little booster is a good idea. It is however dangerous to over feed protein, it however hardly ever happens, because the higher the protein content the more expensive the grain.

[This however raises a very important question. I could so far not find any information on how much more digest-able protein in FERMENTED FEED is in comparison to standard dry feed. This entire thread suggests that the digest-ability of the feed increases so much that high protein feeds is not required to raise chickens.

So this is a question for bee - Would you say 19-21% protein feeds, when fermented could potentially be dangerous to raise chicks on ?
The layer feed I buy contains a lot more salt than the starters and growers, if I ferment that would the salt be too much for little chicks ?
I wish I could buy the non-medicated natural stuff, but I'm in such a remote location it simply isn't available.

Please keep in mind that I do not free-range any chickens under 6months, they will just be eaten by a wide range of predators. So their fermented feed and clean water is all they get.

Please advise]

 

[KrazyChromatics]

my reasoning i guess was to get a wide range of vitamins and minerals that might be missing from their ordinary feed, and i like to switch it up for them because mine dont get to free range right now with hay in the barn but i am raising a lot of birds i only have 5 laying hens, the other have not yet started to lay, but im keeping roughly a dozen or so through the winter, then i have 50 or so others that are going in the freezer within a couple weeks...

now like should i keep some seperate and make the other girls their own mash? do i just do layer for them? id like to make it a bit more special for them, and at least keep up the alfalfa for their greens...

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
Now, see..that's where we just have a difference in husbandry methods. I actually reduce total proteins in the winter because they will slow down as a part of their natural cycle. If I kept high production breeds it might be different and maybe that is what you are doing, trying to keep up with production layers during cold winter months. I've never had to do that because I keep dual purpose breeds that naturally slow down in the winter, so I adjust their nutritional needs accordingly.

I cut total proteins at that time and add a little fats...much like a wild bird would transition to. I always manage to have eggs in the winter, though not at peak production which is as it should be..winter is a definite slow down time and I've experimented with supplementing proteins and fats during that time and not supplementing, and I saw no difference whatsoever in the production levels of the birds. So, I chose to not only not supplement, but actually drop total proteins...both for economic reasons and for the simple fact that they do not need added proteins to keep warm or produce at the level they are producing. It has turned out to be beneficial to their health and their longevity over the years.

I cut a 16% layer rations with about 6-9% whole grain and add some BOSS but not overly much. It has the fat content I want without increasing the proteins I do not want. That's about as fancy as I get with feed mixes....no need to mix complicated feed mixes if you use a layer ration as the basis of your feed mix. It over complicates life and it doesn't yield anything different for the chicken except maybe to shorten their laying~ and actual~ lives when we play with unnaturally increasing their dietary intake of proteins and then forcing them to eat it as it's the only game in town.


Quote:


The starter I get is 18% and mix it with layer now, so my chicks don't even get the benefit of that 18%. My granny used to feed chicks cornmeal...that's it. They were out on range so fast that they got natural proteins for their needs,as are mine.

I have no understanding about this growing birds require more protein content...no more than you'd increase total proteins on your toddlers beyond what their 12 yr old brother may be eating. Babies? Yeah, they get higher proteins as they nurse but a chick is no longer a baby after it has fledged and is then into the toddler stage, IMO.

No matter if you ferment your feeds or not, high proteins are not required to raise chickens at all...I seriously don't know where people are getting this information!

Commercial ag poultry may increase proteins for broiler birds on a grower mix but they are living fast and hard and it often results in them not even making it. Layer ration is mixed for production layers at 16% and no more than 18% and that's commercial layers...why in the world would a backyard hen need more proteins than a commercial laying bird that lays steadily for two years, day in and day out until they burn out and also do not live long? Is that the goal for a backyard flock? If so, I missed the boat..I actually want to keep my birds around a bit and I also want them to live a healthy life while they are here.

Just like one would not feed the family pet a high pro dog feed for sporting and hunting dogs, and wouldn't feed the family horse high pro feeds one would feed a race horse or a work horse, one shouldn't feed a hen that walks in a coop and run all day, lays 5-7 eggs a week during peak laying season and has seasonal slow downs high pro feeds either. They will get their kidneys burnt OUT, their cardio system will suffer, their liver will be fatty and they may develop bumblefoot from gout, general illness from a weakened immune system as their organs go into failure, laying issues from the fat around their reproductive organs, respiratory issues as their abdomens fill up with ascitic fluids...the list goes on.

I'm getting reports from several points this year of just this type of problems~resulting in sudden death of young birds, I might add~ in people's flocks and this is the first year I've heard of it being this bad...for some reason, folks have gotten on this kick of mixing their own feeds or feeding wild game bird feeds or wild bird feeds to their flocks so that they can avoid feeding so much GMO.

Seriously??? Do they eat ketchup, jam, syrup, spaghetti sauce...well..the list is ginormous of the things that have HFCS in them that people eat every day and they are going to worry about GMO seeds in their chicken feed? Feed the kids high fructose corn syrups, but by golly, don't you feed the chickens that stuff! It will get in our eggs!!!

That is called gagging on a gnat and swallowing a camel, in Biblical terms.

Sorry...this subject just burns my bippy and I am not directing it at you, Michelle82, but when the question arises, I must take this opportunity to get that bag of snakes all laid out in a row...please don't think I am trying to insult you with this, because that is not the intention.

Quote:
So, to answer this question....why is anyone feeding that high of protein to a chick in the first place? I know this is a hard thing because you just want to do what is best for your chicks and chickens, but more does not mean better when discussing crude proteins fed to chickens.

I got into fermented feeds not to increase the proteins in the feeds I was feeding, but to make them more digestible so that they are actually getting the proteins in the feed in such a way as to use it appropriately. I think when people saw how well that was accomplished they made that age old mistake and said, "If some is better, more must be best!"(I do the same thing when dealing with detergents, dishes and laundry..

) and started increasing the proteins in their feeds to get the "best" nutrition. Since when is a high protein diet for any animal that isn't being fattened for market the best of nutrition...even us humans?

The fermentation of the feeds does not increase the protein percentage of the feed, it actually changes the type of protein to a more perfect protein that can be utilized by the bird at a cellular level,thus increasing the absorption of the proteins by changing them to amino acids that can be used by the body. Ruminants do it all on their own and even horses and rabbits have specialized bowels to do this,but chickens and pigs do not, so this just helps them digest a grain based diet that they wouldn't normally be on in the first place if they were fetching their own diets out on forage.

So, yes, fermenting high pro feeds will make that level of protein fed more bioavailable but a chicken can only metabolize so much of that before their systems suffer under the strain of too much of one nutrient.

 

[Michelle82]

Quote:
Why ? It is what is sold. It is the same food the commercial farmers use. Nothing else is sold.. Which is why I asked. My goals are however very different. Good health is great - food that is better absorbed great. A chicken older than two years.... No. We eat those.

Which brings me back to the SALT problem, the layer feed, the only one sold here with a protein value of 16% has a lot of salt in it. Which if fed dry causes a lot of problems for little chicks, like drinking sea water. If I ferment it, will the salt wash out enough not to be harmful? Or would it be better to mix a starter (20% protein) with some crushed corn and avoid the layer?
Quote: Not insulted -- If I didn't want to know what you think I would not have asked, or posted. What I've found the last 7 years with keeping chickens, is the way I was taught to keep chickens, doesn't yield the results I want. Which is why I'm taking time and learning about a lot of other ways and the thinking behind those ways.
Quote: I found that raising the proteins and fats on their own yields very little results, only when ALSO extending the daylight hours inside the hen house do you significantly increase the winter egg production. That sounds fancy, but that's just a bulb with a timer. That is if your hen house is nice and cosy and the hen actually lays inside the hen house and not outside.

Then I have to add that those commercial feeds works very well for raising the dual purpose birds, the layers and my bantam pekins, it is only the fancy ornamental chicks like the Phoenix and Wyandotte bantams and the pheasants that gets health problems with the dry high protein commercial feeds. However fermenting the lower protein feed is a lot cheaper.

I'll say that again, a lot cheaper.

So if anyone knows how to get the salt out of the layer feed. Please tell me.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
The answer is in the question with that one, I'm thinking. Commercial ag is trying to get a bird from chick to maturity as quickly as possible with the least expense and so they gear their feeds accordingly. Which is why I only feed straight layer ration to my chickens during peak laying months and then start cutting protein levels in the months when they are not producing so strongly....for the simple fact that I am not feeding commercial grade chickens in a commercial setting.

As to the salt content in the feed...they need salt and I've fed my chicks layer ration salt content for some years now with no ill results or any issues with excessive water consumption. I doubt if fermentation changes the salt content at all but it may hydrate your chicks more due to the moisture in the feeds if you are having trouble with dehydrated chicks...don't know that I ever saw that except in broiler birds that people raise on grower feeds.

I use a simple formula when doling out feed...nothing higher than 18% and no longer than a few weeks of that..then back down to 16% for growing, laying, etc. and then even lower when no consideration needs to happen for either thing. My birds also get less grain feeds than most because they are getting similar but better utilized nutrition out on forage. By fermenting the grains I can turn them into something more similar to the chook's natural diet without any extra costs or fussy feed mixing.

I like simple and effective and I love "cheap" but when you get all three in one feed method, I'm sold! Chickens are just not this complicated..they never have been and I never saw anyone complicate them until I came to this forum and saw a whole new generation trying to raise chickens. It was an eye opener!

 

[mandaleigh1981]

Bee, going to be starting the new chicks on FF right away. They should be here Thursday!

Anyhow, what do you think would be best on offering the FF? Keep it on demand for the babies like the dry feed? Or a limited amount? Anyone else who has fed FF to their chicks I would love to hear your thoughts and results as well! Thanks!