FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[LeslieDJoyce]

Good point. My purpose of this experiment was to compare the way I raised chicks a few years ago with the way I raised them last year and the way I hope to raise them in the future.

Another discovery which I plan to keep a closer eye on is pasted vent.
Group 1 had several with some degree of pasting, 2 were severe.
Group 2 had just slightly less and only 1 severe.
Group 3 had very few but 1 was severe.
So after 1 week, my takeaway so far is that the FF somewhat limited pasting.

I think having chick grit available helps with pasting. Do you have chick grit available?

Without going back and quoting your methods ... I think what you are doing is super cool. I'd like to know more about the yeast and probiotics you're including. What brands? What concentrations? I'm also adding a couple of supplements to my FF, but I add them just prior to serving, not during the fermenting process.

 

[Beekissed]

Good point. My purpose of this experiment was to compare the way I raised chicks a few years ago with the way I raised them last year and the way I hope to raise them in the future.

Another discovery which I plan to keep a closer eye on is pasted vent.
Group 1 had several with some degree of pasting, 2 were severe.
Group 2 had just slightly less and only 1 severe.
Group 3 had very few but 1 was severe.
So after 1 week, my takeaway so far is that the FF somewhat limited pasting.

I've noticed, in my chick rearing, that pasting also seems to derive from brooder temps and their consistency, so was wondering if you were factoring that in?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Excellent information, LJ!

And, yes, an awful lot said in that last sentence.

Thanks. I'm having a lot of fun reading that book. I love that it is available free online.

When reading the first sections of the book, about individual nutrients and what deficiencies in those nutrients caused in the form of deformity or disease or bad behavior, SO many deficiencies were corrected with feeding liver and green stuff. He states that what might present as a protein deficiency is actually a deficiency of a particular vitamin or mineral, for which animal proteins are a good source.

The chapter in Feeding Poultry on feeding breeders starts off with a huge chunk of info about vitamin D, and how sunshine is the best source of vitamin D, as sunshine contains some "unknown factor" science had not identified or replicated at the time of writing. Sprinkle that factoid throughout the rest off the book like stardust, and see why broody raised chicks are more vigorous than hand-raised chicks, etc.

When birds have access to great forage like yours, they have access to sunshine, too. And bugs.

There are tidbits in the book about all the microbes birds get from scratching around in the litter, and also scratching around outdoors. I think this accounts for a lot of the B vitamins ... so this can explain why deep litter is "healthier." And if deep litter is healthy enough to contain bugs ...

I know you have deep litter in your coops.

Fermented Feed is part of a whole system.

 

[Beekissed]

Thanks. I'm having a lot of fun reading that book. I love that it is available free online.

When reading the first sections of the book, about individual nutrients and what deficiencies in those nutrients caused in the form of deformity or disease or bad behavior, SO many deficiencies were corrected with feeding liver and green stuff. He states that what might present as a protein deficiency is actually a deficiency of a particular vitamin or mineral, for which animal proteins are a good source.

The chapter in Feeding Poultry on feeding breeders starts off with a huge chunk of info about vitamin D, and how sunshine is the best source of vitamin D, as sunshine contains some "unknown factor" science had not identified or replicated at the time of writing. Sprinkle that factoid throughout the rest off the book like stardust, and see why broody raised chicks are more vigorous than hand-raised chicks, etc.

When birds have access to great forage like yours, they have access to sunshine, too. And bugs.

There are tidbits in the book about all the microbes birds get from scratching around in the litter, and also scratching around outdoors. I think this accounts for a lot of the B vitamins ... so this can explain why deep litter is "healthier." And if deep litter is healthy enough to contain bugs ...

I know you have deep litter in your coops.

Fermented Feed is part of a whole system.

It is! My flocks were very healthy before I ever started FF, so it's just a little bonus but it was never part of the base health of my flocks. Just clean air, sunshine, clean soils and green grass seems to be the best health tonic of all...but for some reason people can't seem to get that right. They either feel that a run in the sun is where the clean air and sunshine come in or a few hours on free ranging in the back yard of an evening is enough to promote good health. I'm not sure it's enough.

Another very important tool in healthy flock keeping is the cull. It's simply a must for preventative health maintenance and this doesn't mean culling sick birds...I've only once had to cull a sick bird once or twice in many a long year and these were birds brought into my flock from an outside source. They were culled because they displayed an early tendency to develop illness and, because of that, they had the likelihood of developing illness in the future. If I had merely isolated them and gave them meds, they would still be in my flocks with their weak immune system genetics alongside them, just waiting for the next big thing.

I cull yearly for nonlaying...the lack of lay in peak laying season is a very good indicator of a bird's general health~be it due to age, poor genetics or latent illness. All of these are undesirable in a healthy flock. Roosters are culled for similar reasons~infertility, old age, inability to defend their flock status after reaching sexual maturity.

 

[fosterson]

Beekissed - Just read about the chemical spill into the Elk River there in WV. I hope you and yours are far far away from that mess!

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I kick myself for not keeping better feed consumption records for my older birds prior to and after switching to FF.
I can still tell I'm using less though. I attribute that to less waste. It would be difficult because I still keep dry bulk feeders but give all the flocks a dose of FF in the morning and again in the afternoon.
This is the first opportunity I've had to compare growing birds starting from scratch.
With all the discussion of growth and feed savings I wanted to test the theory.
Using all the same breed and starting early should help.

I keep practically no records. A while back, we went through the feed store receipts/records and put that in a spreadsheet along with daily egg counts taken over some months. But of course, we also had meat birds, turkeys, ducks, roosters, chicks, blah blah blah ... The information is virtually useless, except that it does help with gaining some perspective if one puts a price on the eggs and compares that "income" to the feed expenses.

We don't dare factor in the Home Depot charges.

The results inspired me to start fermenting a feed with the hopes of saving some money on feed.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I've been reading the Feeding Poultry book. It defines a bird "in production" as a bird which is growing, regrowing feathers after molt, recovering from an illness, laying, etc. Specific to laying, it says this about protein requirements:

Feeding Poultry
Chapter 13 [starts on page 383]
Feeding and Management for Egg Production

[I've retyped this, so please verify everything for yourself. Full text, including footnotes, is available to read for free online at this link: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003011545;view=1up;seq=399 ]

Protein. Satisfactory production cannot be obtained unless additional protein, besides that found in grains, is supplied.

Halnan made the accompanying estimates of the protein and energy requirements of a laying hen.

Hens in production require a continuous supply of protein since the nitrogen required for egg production is largely, if not entirely, drawn from the food. An insufficient amount of protein will result in decreased egg production, lower body weight, and smaller egg size. A shortage of albumin in the ration has been reported as resulting in pickouts which ceased directly after albumin had been fed.

Where birds were given the opportunity of balancing their own ration, some birds laid well and gained on a 12 to 13 per cent protein level while others wanted or required a higher level. Non-laying birds thrived and prepared to lay on an 11 per cent protein ration. In general, egg production was in accordance with the protein level, but the highest levels were not always the most economical.

Experimental results generally show that a ration containing 12 per cent protein was not sufficient for satisfactory egg production, body weight, or egg size; that the 14 per cent protein ration gave satisfactory egg production but did not maintain body weight at all times and was not conducive to best egg size; that the 16 per cent protein ration was satisfactory in all respects.

Workers in the United States Department of Agriculture report that increasing the percentage of protein in the diet, within the limits of 11.2 percent and 23.6 per cent by the use of protein supplements of different origin, augmented egg production (1) by increasing intensity of production, (2) by increasing egg weight through direct effect on yolk weight, and (3) indirectly by increasing body weight and yolk weight, thereby increasing albumen weight. INcreasing the protein level, within the limits stated increased the quantity of egg produced per unit weight of feed eaten. Increasing the protein content decreased the efficiency of protein for egg production.

In studying the relationship of ruptured yolk to fowl paralysis, Moore reports that results over a period of 3 years indicate higher mortality from a flock receiving a 13.5 per cent protein ration than from on receiving an 18.5 per cent protein diet. Bronkhorst reports higher mortality do to prolapse from pullets on a basal mash containing 10 per cent of meat meal than from pullets fed mixtures containing 15 and 20 per cent of meat meal. Prolapse was frequently followed by cannibalism and did not appear to be influenced by egg size, egg yield, or age at sexual maturity.

Byerly suggests, as a result of food requirement studies, that possibly smaller birds require a higher percentage of crude protein in the diet than larger birds, for the same degree of production.

The question might arise concerning a possibility of feeding an excess of protein. The Western Washington Station states that all-mash rations containing 30 per cent of a protein concentrate did not produce a high percentage of organic trouble. It would appear from this, as well as from the experiences of others, that hens can tolerate a fairly high protein ration if other conditions are favorable.

As a general summary, it would seem that in order to promote satisfactory production, maintain body weight, and secure good egg size, the ration should contain 15 to 16 percent of protein. Part of this should come from animal source. If the birds are on good range, favorable results can be obtained with a lower amount of protein in the ration.

-----------

There is an awful lot said in that last sentence, no?

Actually, a bird "in production" is one that is actively laying.
~~"a bird which is growing, regrowing feathers after molt, recovering from an illness, laying, etc" is a bird that is NOT "in production".
The latter are those with dramatically decreased need for calcium and a greater need for protein.

Excellent information, LJ!

And, yes, an awful lot said in that last sentence.

I'm guilty of imagining that everyone has a setup like mine and I think most folks feel the same way, so when talking about how they feed, what they feed or don't feed, they tend to think only in what their own bird's needs have been in the past. Mine have access to forage all year long if the snow is not too deep~which is rare nowadays~so they are constantly augmenting their diet with the white dutch clover and other grasses that grow throughout our winters here, though the nutrition in those grasses is lower in the cold weather.

I also only keep dual purpose breeds now so the high protein needs of production layers isn't in my wheelhouse and my big, meaty birds seem to thrive on lower levels of protein than other people are feeding. I never feed higher than the layer ration I buy on protein, though the grasses and bugs they eat here are considerably higher in proteins.

Yes, everyone has different circumstances, breeds, ages and management techniques.
Except for a couple birds, I'm only raising a DP breed, various ages and stages of production.
I currently have no exposed forage and if I did the birds would be hard pressed to find anything to eat. In 2 more months I'll get some growth and in 3 months the chickens won't be able to keep up. Then by mid November everything will be gone again.
I keep a bag of 60% fishmeal on hand to supplement the 16% protein grower feed that is the basis of most of what I feed. I'll mix in fishmeal for growing birds, moulters and - in winter, "birds in production."

I think having chick grit available helps with pasting. Do you have chick grit available?

Without going back and quoting your methods ... I think what you are doing is super cool. I'd like to know more about the yeast and probiotics you're including. What brands? What concentrations? I'm also adding a couple of supplements to my FF, but I add them just prior to serving, not during the fermenting process.

Yes, I've scattered some chick grit in each brooder but I ran out and picked up some more yesterday which I'll put in later today.

Since I'm just finding my way with FF, I've taken a bit of a shotgun approach but I plan on refining it.
Up till now, for the adult birds in a 5 gallon pickle bucket I fill just over half full with "Nature's Grown Organics" brand 16% chick grower along with a about 16 oz. each of wheat and barley. Approximately the following mixed in:
5 oz. Braggs organic ACV
1 Tbsp. Fleischmann's active dry yeast
1 Tbsp. gro2MAX probiotic blend for chickens
1 tsp. mineral supplement
cover everything with de-chlorinated water.

For the chicks a much smaller batch with similar ratios except no mineral supplement since I'm using conventional "Nature's Seasons" brand 22% starter crumbles and no grain so the mineral/vitamin ingredients should be appropriate for their age.
I'm not using the organic since it isn't finely ground and has a considerable amount of whole unground corn, barley and oats, which I deemed too large for baby chicks.

After I get through this batch I may switch the FF group to more of a lactic acid ferment. I'll cut out the yeast and ACV and move to the gro2MAX and some live cultured buttermilk.

I've noticed, in my chick rearing, that pasting also seems to derive from brooder temps and their consistency, so was wondering if you were factoring that in?

I agree and I had considered that but right now I'm in a fix as it has been below zero outside, about 50 in the cellar where I'm raising them and some of my heat sources failed. All three are with different heat sources. I have three 150 watt ceramic emitters in the mail so heat and daylength will become identical in the days to come.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

..
.
... He states that what might present as a protein deficiency is actually a deficiency of a particular vitamin or mineral, for which animal proteins are a good source.


The chapter in Feeding Poultry on feeding breeders starts off with a huge chunk of info about vitamin D, and how sunshine is the best source of vitamin D, as sunshine contains some "unknown factor" science had not identified or replicated at the time of writing. Sprinkle that factoid throughout the rest off the book like stardust, and see why broody raised chicks are more vigorous than hand-raised chicks, etc.
.
..

There are tidbits in the book about all the microbes birds get from scratching around in the litter, and also scratching around outdoors. I think this accounts for a lot of the B vitamins ... so this can explain why deep litter is "healthier." And if deep litter is healthy enough to contain bugs ...
.
..

Agreed. That's why I use fishmeal (and meat scraps) to supplement the bragged upon "all vegetable" feed that seems to be the craze.

Vitamin D is also so important in the assimilation of calcium.

A chick raised by a healthy broody hen will pick up beneficial bacteria by consuming some of her feces.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I noticed I had a little pasting in my last brooder because of cold coming up from the ground...I had forgotten to place a barrier there under the bedding as I had previously. When I decreased the brooder size just a little and placed something under the coop bedding for them, it cleared my inconsistent brooder temps up right away and the pasting left immediately thereafter. They were on FF so I don't think it was the diet but the irregular temps I was providing, so now I always look at that when folks mention pasting.

I agree on the definition of production...at least, for me, production is when they are in peak laying season...if the majority of my flock are laying in the winter I call that production levels and I keep them on more of the layer ration. If they are not, I cut it down with whole grains. Come early spring when laying production increases, I increase the layer ration mix to 100%. Right now, by sheer happenstance of layer mash being the cheapest grain at the mill, my whole flock are on 100% with some BOSS thrown in for fat. They've been on that for some time now and I was getting only one egg a day from an ancient WR.

Now, however, a few pullets have decided to start laying.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

...

Another very important tool in healthy flock keeping is the cull. It's simply a must for preventative health maintenance and this doesn't mean culling sick birds...I've only once had to cull a sick bird once or twice in many a long year and these were birds brought into my flock from an outside source. They were culled because they displayed an early tendency to develop illness and, because of that, they had the likelihood of developing illness in the future. If I had merely isolated them and gave them meds, they would still be in my flocks with their weak immune system genetics alongside them, just waiting for the next big thing.

I cull yearly for nonlaying...the lack of lay in peak laying season is a very good indicator of a bird's general health~be it due to age, poor genetics or latent illness. All of these are undesirable in a healthy flock. Roosters are culled for similar reasons~infertility, old age, inability to defend their flock status after reaching sexual maturity.

One of my favorite quotes is from Gail Damerow's book cites Fred P. Jeffrey (a retired professor of poultry science). He "advocates the rigid culling of all snifflers, droopers, feather rufflers, poor eaters, and pale-headed birds to be sure they don't reproduce their kind."

I keep practically no records. A while back, we went through the feed store receipts/records and put that in a spreadsheet along with daily egg counts taken over some months. But of course, we also had meat birds, turkeys, ducks, roosters, chicks, blah blah blah ... The information is virtually useless, except that it does help with gaining some perspective if one puts a price on the eggs and compares that "income" to the feed expenses.

We don't dare factor in the Home Depot charges.

The results inspired me to start fermenting a feed with the hopes of saving some money on feed.

Boy, don't I feel you on that.
A Lowe's and a Home Depot opened within walking distance